Lens Diaries Go Now
Glamour, Beauty, Nude, Models, Photographers

*    |  Register  


 
Go Back   Garage Glamour™ > Garage Glamour™ Main Forums > Tech Talk Forum
 

Tech Talk Forum Photography & Technical Related Only!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Got a question here...
Old 02-05-2006, 04:03 PM   #1 (permalink)
Lifetime Photographer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Member GG#: 35504
Location: Winchester
Posts: 27
Comments: 0

danbritt is offline IP: 68.232.72.194
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

Shot my Nikon D1 last month for the first time.
I use Adobe Photoshop to edit my images.
My D1 saved the images in the color profile Nikon NTSC RGB 4.0.0.3000.
My working space in PS has been set to both Adobe RGB and sRGBIEC 61966-2.1.
I have saved images in all the color schemes.
Though all images in what ever color scheme look good in PS,
I have taken note that it seems only sRGB looks best when uploaded to the internet. How do seasoned digital photographers handle this situation ?

Here is an image saved in Nikon RGB:


Here is the same image in sRGB:



Thank you for your suggestions,

Tom Snyder
  View Public Profile Send a private message to danbritt Visit danbritt's homepage! Find More Posts by danbritt
 
Re: Got a question here...
Old 02-05-2006, 04:18 PM   #2 (permalink)
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Member GG#: 45009
Posts: 14
Comments: 0

MickH is offline IP: 24.117.181.74
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

lol, I just made a similar post. It seems I'm not the only one having that problem, the difference being Nikon and Canon, but same problem. Hopefully between the 2 posts, we'll figure something out.
  View Public Profile Send a private message to MickH Visit MickH's homepage! Find More Posts by MickH
 
Re: Got a question here...
Old 02-05-2006, 04:35 PM   #3 (permalink)
Lifetime Photographer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Member GG#: 36657
Posts: 403
Comments: 0

That_Look_Photography is offline IP: 68.200.100.150
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

I may be wrong but I always thought you should shoot in RGB. RGB is what you want for printing your images. To post on the internet you want to convert the image to SRGB. Your monitor can not disply the images amount of colors when you post to the internet with an image set on the RGB color profile. SRGB is best to view on a internet browser. The best thing to do is shoot raw and save a copy in RGB and save another in SRGB. So you have 3 copys raw/srg/srgb.

Mike

That Look Photo
  View Public Profile Send a private message to That_Look_Photography Visit That_Look_Photography's homepage! Find More Posts by That_Look_Photography
 
Re: Got a question here...
Old 02-05-2006, 05:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
Lifetime Photographer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Member GG#: 35504
Location: Winchester
Posts: 27
Comments: 0

danbritt is offline IP: 68.232.72.194
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

Thanks Mike !
I do shoot and save in .raw
However, I was told some time ago
that prints should be done in sRGB and internet should be RGB.
Obviously, that was some bad info !
Now I know why my prints never came back looking as good as I sent them,
and my internet images looked different.
Judging from your portfolio...
you are a man that knows what he is talking about !
Thanks again,
Tom Snyder
  View Public Profile Send a private message to danbritt Visit danbritt's homepage! Find More Posts by danbritt
 
Re: Got a question here...
Old 02-05-2006, 05:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
Lifetime Photographer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Member GG#: 36657
Posts: 403
Comments: 0

That_Look_Photography is offline IP: 68.200.100.150
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

I just did an experiment to prove what I said. In photoshop when you do a save for web option it makes the image SRGB...So what I said makes sense.
  View Public Profile Send a private message to That_Look_Photography Visit That_Look_Photography's homepage! Find More Posts by That_Look_Photography
 
Re: Got a question here...
Old 02-05-2006, 07:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Member GG#: 39608
Location: Hillsborough
Posts: 474
Comments: 0

hipchildreth is offline IP: 66.57.105.187
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

What Mike says is right. sRGB for web use. The reason is that the sRGB color space is designed around a typical RGB monitor with gamma at 2.2... which is your average Windows monitor. It's slightly limited in terms of saturated greens and blues but still perfectly useful. If you have a file printed by a lab or say, Costco or Wal-mart, sRGB is the default space for their devices.

The Adobe RGB color space is designed to facilitate output to most types of published content. It converts nicely to CMYK for offset and inkjet printing... it's just a good general purpose color space. It's hard to go wrong with Adobe RGB as your default working space.

We just dicovered in this same forum a week or so ago that you have to be careful when converting to sRGB from Adobe RGB. If the luminosity distribution in the individual color channels isn't balanced and one or more gets clipped in the conversion, the color balance shifts.

Chip
  View Public Profile Send a private message to hipchildreth Visit hipchildreth's homepage! Find More Posts by hipchildreth
 
what I do
Old 02-05-2006, 07:08 PM   #7 (permalink)
Lifetime Photographer
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Member GG#: 35977
Posts: 609
Comments: 0

Andy_Pearlman is offline IP: 72.25.71.45
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

To me, this is really simple. I have the camera colorspace set to shoot in sRGb, and I shoot RAW+JPG (smallest, lowest quality JPG). Here's my thinking and workflow. First of all, realize that setting the colorspace to sRGB only affects the JPG - the RAW by definition includes all the data to make Adobe RAW or Color Match or whatever space you want. I do this because I'm going to use the JPGs for web preview, review, selection, client presentation, copyright registration, etc, and don't want the hassle of converting them to sRGB before I do any of those things which are mostly viewed on browsers, which are not color-managed. (Remember, its not the "internet" per se that creates the color problem, its the browsers. If you view your Adobe 1998 files on your own computer in a browser, they'll look equally bad whether the files are transmitted over the internet or come from your own harddrive).

I use the corresponding RAW file for my final production and publication because Adobe RAW has a wider gamut of colors (some of which can't be seen in a browser - hence the need to convert browser images to sRGB - but CAN be seen in Photoshop and in print.) I can also decide to take my RAW file and later convert it to sRGB from any other format - TIF or PSD - if I want to show that actual file in a browser (like my website).

Workflow: When I download my shoot files, I first split them into two folders, one for RAWs, one for JPGs. I then use a utility (in my case, ThumbsPlus) to AutoRename them all, running the same script on both folders so they still have the same filename (but different extension of course) as their counterpart - thus maintaining the duality, but with a more meaningful filename. At this point I can go in and start deleting outtakes (rejects) in pairs if I want to. Once done, I will run a batch and resize the JPGs down to something managable, like 800pixels on the long side at 72 dpi, and automatically imprint a watermark. This is the set from which I will make client presentation galleries and copyright registration files. Once the client or I decide which image to use in some fashion, I go back to the original corresponding RAW file and use Adobe ACR in PS2 to open and process it.

I know many photogs who don't bother with the JPG part of my solution, they prefer to save the card space and then use file converter like ACR to process all their RAW files into JPGs later, or they use the actual RAW files in Bridge or some other third party software to view and select from. One thing though, if they're shooting RAW, by default they're able to get their colorspace into Adobe 1998 or Color Match or even sRGB - whatever they want. If you only shoot JPGs, I don't see any point in shooting in RAW. You're already set for the web, and there's enough information to make decent prints and color seperations. If it was really critical that you have the maximum colorspace gamut, you should be shooting in RAW anyway.

I new shoot the Canon 5D, but this worked the same when I used the Nikon D2X and D70. Also, most pros I know don't use the manufacturer's conversion software, either Nikon or Canon. Most use Adobe ACR, some use Phase One.

Regards,
Andy Pearlman
Andy Pearlman Studio



  View Public Profile Send a private message to Andy_Pearlman Visit Andy_Pearlman's homepage! Find More Posts by Andy_Pearlman
 
Re: Got a question here... some answers
Old 02-05-2006, 10:24 PM   #8 (permalink)
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Member GG#: 48981
Posts: 4
Comments: 0

JMH1 is offline IP: 66.153.178.54
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

Color calibration can seem very complicated, but it is actually quite simple. First of all you must realize that sRGB has a much smaller gamut than Adobe RGB 1998. What EXACTLY does this mean? Well, the gamut is a map of what colors and intensities your specific devices are CAPABLE of displaying. EVERYTHING has a gamut, including your own eyes. So, if you want to have the widest color range, shoot with your camera set to the latter. sRGB was designed for web colorspace where the browsers display limited colors for speed and a better fit across a WIDE range of monitors.

OK, remember, when you calibrate your monitor you are only looking at 1/4 of the problem. Yes, use the spyder to generate a monitor calibration and redo it every month (CRT's actually change).

1. WIndows monitor colorspace

RULE - YOU MUST CALIBRATE YOUR MONITOR

RULE - DELETE THE ADOBE GAMUT UTILITY, IT CAN CHANGE YOUR MONITOR PROFILE!!!

I like to use a gamut of 1.8, a color temperature of 6500 (a little cooler white) and a lum of 120 to 140 (determined by your monitor limits). Once you have this in place (remember, your display adapter determins where you actually place this icc profile, ie: Gforce has a seperate color space window where you place the profile whereas windows advanced monitor windows also ask for the icc profile) and have told Windows where to go find the icc profile you still have to set up Photoshop.

2. Photoshop color space.

RULE - YOU MUST SET UP YOUR DEFAULT COLOR SPACE AND TELL PHOTOSHOP HOW TO MANAGE MISMATCHES - ADOBE RGB 1998 HAS A WIDER GAMUT THAN sRGB

RULE - YOU MUST USE SOFT PROOFING TO SEE OUTPUT AFFECTS!!

Go to colorspace setup within Photoshop and select Adobe 1998 as your default color workspace. Then select "ASK" for missing and mismatched profiles. The default colorspace (Adobe 1998) now becomes the conversion point for the color engin. If your image icc profile is ANYTHING other than 1998 you have made a mistake in your raw conversion or withing the camera setup. Go change the errant item to fix this. (see top for reason why). Ok, so now Photoshop reads the image file and if it is other than 1998 asks if you want to convert it. If you say yes, it will move the orgional color space to 1998 and continue. I do this for consistancy within my images. If you say "no" and do not do the conversion, then Photoshop will map the image colors as best it can to the 1998 space that we selected as the default. THIS WILL SHOW YOU WHAT THE IMAGE IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE ON YOUR PROFILED MONITOR ONLY, NOT THE PRINT SPACE. So what happens is :

Convert or map image to photoshop space. (photoshop default workspace profile)
Map photoshop space to Monitor space (spyder profile)

Simple so far. But now the most important step. We actually want to see what the image will look like on the printer right?

3 Printer work space or soft proofing

Ok, under view in photoshop select soft profile, then custom. Go look for the printer icc profile within the window that pops up. This will be there IF YOU HAVE A PRINTER THAT SUPPORTS icc profiles AND THAT YOU INSTALLED SAID PROFILES!
In my experience, all of the Epson printers come with color profiles. Some of the HP printers like the 130, 9760 and so on also support profiles as well. You MUST have your printer profiles installed if you wish to take advantage of soft proofing, otherwise you will not be able to simulate printer output on the monitor. So select the printer, paper and ink modes with the proper printer icc profile then say ok. NOW Photoshop maps the image to workspace to monitor simulating the printer! SIMPLE!! Remember, this is called soft proofing for a reason. It simulates the printer and will only be close.

But wait there is more!

4 Printing with the correct profile

RULE - YOU MUST TURN OFF PRINTER COLOR CONTROL

RULE - YOU MUST TURN OFF WINDOWS PRINT COLOR CONTROL

How do we do this? Simple when printing within photoshop choose print with preview, NEVER PRINT. Then go under advanced control and tell the driver that you wish to print with Photoshop controlling the printer and to turn off ALL printer color output. Then (under print with preview - advanced) tell photoshop the printer icc profile you wish to use (again a pop up window with all of them providing you installed them) and you are all set to send the image to the printer. Now what happens is we go: image - workspace/monitor/softproof - printer. The image gets mapped to lots of color profiles to accomplish this but IT WORKS!

Ok, so it really is not simple but once you understand the basics, you start to get it and remember it. It takes time and repetitive practice to get it, but trust me, it is REALLY worth it to work in this CLOSED LOOP color calibrated model.

I discuss this some on my web site, please feel free to take a look around.

  View Public Profile Send a private message to JMH1 Visit JMH1's homepage! Find More Posts by JMH1
 
Re: Got a question here...
Old 02-17-2006, 11:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
Lifetime Photographer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Member GG#: 35504
Location: Winchester
Posts: 27
Comments: 0

danbritt is offline IP: 68.232.72.194
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

Thank you everyone for your suggestions,all were food for thought and helpful !
Here is how this image came about.
It was recorded by the D1 camera as Nikon RGB , raw format.
Transfered the image to my computer using Nikon transfer software.
No editing was done in Nikon software other than converting to jpg format.
Opened the jpg image in adobe ps. Converted the embedded color to my working color space of Adobe RGB 1998. Then preformed my edits.
Saved a copy for printing. Then I sized it down, selected "save for web"
and saved a copy for web use.

How does this image compare ?

Tom Snyder

  View Public Profile Send a private message to danbritt Visit danbritt's homepage! Find More Posts by danbritt
 
Re: Got a question here...
Old 02-18-2006, 05:07 PM   #10 (permalink)
Lifetime Photographer
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Member GG#: 40641
Location: Sparks, NV
Posts: 375
Comments: 0

DanNV is offline IP: 71.83.118.58
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

A couple things. First, I;'d convert the RAW to TIFF since it isn't compressed.

Second, from what you've said, you need to convert the image to sRGB after you've resized it but before you do a save for web. Then your colors won't come out as washed out. (It looks fine if I open it in Photoshop, but washed out here.)

Dan
  View Public Profile Send a private message to DanNV Find More Posts by DanNV
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tech question - Film - darkroom / in camera - HDR c_canade' Tech Talk Forum 2 05-15-2008 08:59 PM
Answer a Photo Question then leave a Photo Question? rolandogomez Main Community Forum 35 12-02-2007 07:00 PM
Answer to question on sensor size vs crop factor Brad Tech Talk Forum 17 01-02-2006 10:40 PM
A question on digital use due to JT's question jford Tech Talk Forum 11 12-03-2002 06:58 PM

Sponsors


New To Site? Need Help? Photographer & Model Links
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:05 PM.

© 1999-2017 Garage Glamour™




Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94