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Question for the 20D shooters.....
Old 11-16-2005, 05:16 AM   #1 (permalink)
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An overseas friend with a 20D, sent me these comments tonite, asking to compare his problem with his 20D to my new 5D. I haven't gotten far enough along to know anything yet, but I thought I'd post part of his message here to see if it's familiar to any of our many 20D folks...


I mostly want to know about the autofocus and internal camera shake in
slow shudder speed shooting conditions and shooting with a tripod at a
125th or a 60th indoors (to soak in ambient light mixed with flash like
in restaurant shootings) without getting mirror shake which rattles the sensor
chip in the 20D.

Currently, I can not, under any circumstances shoot in existing light at
below a 250th if I want a sharp image. This is because when the mirror
locks up to get out of the way of the light path, it vibrates so much
that the sensor chip vibrates also. Canon knows about this and ain't
telling you. I am hoping the 5D works better as there is no pop up flash
and more room for the mirror and the larger prizm. Also, it is possible
that the added body weight of the 5D will help stablize the camera from
vibrating so much during the lock up. Just my hopefull speculations.


Very interested to hear anything to shed some light on this problem, it sounds a bit farfetched for Canon, but this guy as a long-time pro and knows his gear, and he's in Bangkok where I think they build these things... I'm concerned because I'm probably going to buy one as a backup for my 5D.

Regards,
Andy Pearlman
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Re: Question for the 20D shooters.....
Old 11-16-2005, 07:54 AM   #2 (permalink)
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andy,
if it works anything like the 10d...you have to use the mirror lockup custom function....whatever # it is on the 20d.

Matt
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Re: Question for the 20D shooters.....
Old 11-16-2005, 08:19 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Andy,

I have been using my 20D for quite some time now and have not noticed an issue. I shoot quite a few weddings as well so I'm quite frequently shooting available light at 1/60....I can't go below that most times because I shake too much [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'm just wondering if your friend has an issue with his camera specifically? Why hasn't he sent it in for repair.

I don't know...I think if it was a widespread issue there would be more "noise" about it on various forums and such.

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Re: Question for the 20D shooters.....
Old 11-16-2005, 11:50 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Andy, I've seen your friend's work and he definitely knows his gear. I've never had this issue and I've shot a lot of long shutter speed images on a tripod with both the 10D and 20D. I rarely use the mirror lockup Custom Function. With the mirror lockup the mirror flips up and then you trigger the shutter, preferably with a cable, a few seconds later. That way everything's sure to have settled down and the tripping of the shutter is an electronic function so it shouldn't vibrate anything. It's kind of a drag having to go into a Custom Function menu to lock up the mirror but it's worth it if you're setting up an interior shot and have the time to get things in place. Plus, I've always shot Canon and can't say if other manufacturers have an easier method.

He may want to send his rig in to Canon for a checkup.

Hope this helps. Can you please post the link to his work again? I can't find it.

MG
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Re: Question for the 20D shooters.....
Old 11-16-2005, 02:23 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I am a 20D user and my images are super sharp. When I first recieved the camera I found myself doing selective unsharp mask, until I set the shooting parameters to max sharpness. Other than that no vibration problems. I also follow the lens Inverse Rule shutterspeed >60mm for hand held shots and match shutterspeed to lens max length (1/100 = 100mm Lens). Perhaps you friends camera has a defect or malfunction. I have 6 other friends with 20D and they also reported no such problems.
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Re: Question for the 20D shooters.....
Old 11-16-2005, 05:34 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Oh no....the 5D is worse IMO.....at least, I am compareing it without the vertical grip, which I noticed makes a difference.. It sort of "smooths" it.. I just learned this over the last weekend when the Canon rep was in town, and he displayed a 5D that had the vertical grip..( that has been on back-order for ever)... and I noticed that the mirror "slap" sound was lessened, and that it didn't feel as "shaky" when the shutter was released... I am guessing the same can be said with the 20D..(I think)..

your buddy may need to get a better tripod, head, or mounting plate, or all three.. When I need to shoot long exposures, I always use CS function number 12, which enables the mirror lock up mode.. I'm not sure why that wasn't detailed before,... Also,....I am not sure which lenses he is using.. If he is using slow lenses,...and long exposures,...I could see him getting shake problems..more so than fast lenses because of the bulk of the lens.. it actually adds to the stability of the camera, given that everything else is rock solid...(tripod, head, mounting plate..)....Oh, on that note, I prefer a non cork mounting plate.. I actually remove the cork, and have metal on metal,...which lessens the vibration,.....this is most helpful with longer lenses.. That, and, I guess this would be a possibility,...that if he is using a lens that can be used with a tripod colar,...that he should use that thing, rather than having his camera mounted by it's tripod mount on the bottom, rather than the tripod mount on the colar of the lens...I have seen plenty of "misuse" like that believe it or not..

For me,....I haven't had any issues with mirror slap being too bad.. under 125th on a lens that is ≈ the same focal length.....I'm sure you know the rule I am referring to..

Ask him for more basic info,...as like in... what lenses, tripod,..mounts..etc.. he is using..

JP

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Re: Question for the 20D shooters.....
Old 11-16-2005, 09:37 PM   #7 (permalink)
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JP..what rule is that? (scratching head)
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Re: Question for the 20D shooters.....
Old 11-16-2005, 10:06 PM   #8 (permalink)
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[ QUOTE ]
JP..what rule is that? (scratching head)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the sort of a rule "rule" you know...that kind of thing.. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Basically,..it's the "hand holding rule".. that every milimeter equals ≈ that value of a fraction of a second.. ....Gosh..... Ok... for a 35mm lens, you shouldn't hand hold it less than 1/30th of a second.. a 50mm lens.. shouldn't be held for less than a 45th of a second.. an 85mm lens,...shouldn't be held longer than a 90th of a second.....a 300mm lens shouldn't be hand held for less than a 250ths of a second.... do you follow..?
That is "the rule"..

JP
 
 
Re: That\'s some friend..
Old 11-16-2005, 10:40 PM   #9 (permalink)
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QUOTE: "Canon knows about this and ain't
telling you."

Let me appolgize on behalf of Canon for saving the PRO features for their PRO Cameras and not giving it away for $1200 (US dollars).

Tell him to get a 1D mkII and a 85mm 1.2 and he should have no problems, unless he is a smoking, coffee drinker...

Andy, this was said tongue-in-cheek, but hopefully you know what I mean..

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yes, and he knows his stuff.....
Old 11-17-2005, 12:13 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Sorry, but I've been in photography for a very long time, and I don't think "stable shutter at slow speeds" should be (or is) included in the list of "pro" options. I have a $500 point and shoot that is stable at slow shutter speeds (and yes, I know it doesn't have a mirror). It seems to me if this is a legitmate issue, it is something that comes under the heading of "If we can't do this part right, why put out the camera at all?". (It does beg the question, why have a mirror in a digital camera anyway? Why not just get a video feed to the viewfinder, same as on the point & shoots?).

As for the 1DM2, why spend more than you need for something? I spent the last 5 years of my film life shooting with a Nikon F100 body, never owned or needed an F5. There are a lot of features in the top of the line bodies from all manufacturers that most people will never need, so why pay extra to not use them? For his purposes, the 20D has all the technical specs and features he needs, as the 5D does for me. But as I said, I don't think eliminating "camera shake" should require a massive upgrade.

Regards,
Andy Pearlman
Andy Pearlman Studio
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