Photo Tips Go Now
Glamour, Beauty, Nude, Models, Photographers

*    |  Register  


 
Go Back   Garage Glamour™ > Garage Glamour™ Main Forums > Tech Talk Forum
 

Tech Talk Forum Photography & Technical Related Only!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
black & white films and hardening fixers question
Old 03-07-2005, 05:45 PM   #1 (permalink)
Bawdy Little Monkey

 
SamBeasley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Member GG#: 41173
Location: Miami Beach
Posts: 1,385
Comments: 1
Send a message via AIM to SamBeasley Send a message via Yahoo to SamBeasley

SamBeasley is offline IP: 68.18.213.105
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

Hey guys, I was just wondering what are some thoughts about hardening fixers for developing black & white film? I know TMAX has a built-in hardener, and Ilford recommends to not use a hardening fixer on their films. What about something like Tri-X? Kodak's recommendations for film development lists hardening fixers (all Kodak, of course).

I guess it would depend on what developer I use. The directions for Photo Formulary's WD2D+, for example -- a pyro developer -- states not to use a hardening fixer because the emulsion is hardened during development.

What about developing Tri-X in something like D-76? Should I go with a hardening fixer like Kodak says, or just use what I currently have (Photo Formulary's TF-4, a non-hardening rapid fixer)?

Some other developers I currently have don't say a thing about what type of fixer to use. It's getting confusing. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Somebody help me make scratch-resistant negatives?

Sam
  View Public Profile Send a private message to SamBeasley Visit SamBeasley's homepage! Find More Posts by SamBeasley
 
Re: black & white films and hardening fixers question
Old 03-07-2005, 08:01 PM   #2 (permalink)
Evangelical Ne'er-do-well

 
ChipBulgin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Member GG#: 42306
Location: Severna Park, MD
Posts: 482
Comments: 0
Send a message via Yahoo to ChipBulgin

ChipBulgin is offline IP: 68.49.128.240
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

Unless a developer specifically states otherwise, I would almost always use a hardening fixer on negatives. The only exception would be if I were going to intensify/reduce them or have retouching work done. After intensification or reduction I would re-fix them in a hardening fixer. Depending on how they were retouched, I'd re-fix them in hardening fixer as well. Talk to the retouching lab about final fixing before you have anything done.

It's not that you _can't_ use a hardening fixer with pyro, just that you shouldn't. The reason you shouldn't use a hardening fixer is because it inhibits the formation of the stain during the second pass through the developer, weakening the reason you might have chosen to use pyro in the first place.

Basically, if you're going to do anything to the negative after fixing you shouldn't initially use a hardening fixer. After you finish whatever it is you're doing, you should use a hardening fixer to protect the neg. Note to the preceeding, I don't know if there's any advantage to re-fixing a pyro-developed negative after the final wash.

-Chip
  View Public Profile Send a private message to ChipBulgin Find More Posts by ChipBulgin
 
Re: black & white films and hardening fixers question
Old 03-07-2005, 08:11 PM   #3 (permalink)
Lifetime Photographer

 
hicspix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Member GG#: 35341
Location: Phoenixville
Posts: 866
Comments: 0
My Mood:
Send a message via AIM to hicspix

hicspix is offline IP: 64.12.116.203
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody help me make scratch-resistant negatives?


[/ QUOTE ]

Lord, how I wish ... lol

The poster prior to this one covered it all clearly, but trust me negs will scratch even with the greatest of care. Nature of the beast, sadly -- especially since the hardener affects strictly the emulsion side of the film and not the plastic back. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Dave
  View Public Profile Send a private message to hicspix Visit hicspix's homepage! Find More Posts by hicspix
 
Re: black & white films and hardening fixers question
Old 03-08-2005, 02:56 AM   #4 (permalink)
Bawdy Little Monkey

 
SamBeasley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Member GG#: 41173
Location: Miami Beach
Posts: 1,385
Comments: 1
Send a message via AIM to SamBeasley Send a message via Yahoo to SamBeasley

SamBeasley is offline IP: 65.4.228.4
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

I've never done any intensifying, reducing, or retouching on a negative, and I probably won't be anytime soon, so it looks like I need to get me a good hardening fixer to use alongside my TF-4 (for pyro negs).

As for pyro, I need to learn more about it as a developer. I currently only know about this particular pyro developer (WD2D+), and I hear "The Book of Pyro" by Gordon Hutchings is the quintessential book on pyro. I'll have to pick me up a copy.

Thanks for your help!

Sam
  View Public Profile Send a private message to SamBeasley Visit SamBeasley's homepage! Find More Posts by SamBeasley
 
Re: black & white films and hardening fixers question
Old 03-08-2005, 03:06 AM   #5 (permalink)
Bawdy Little Monkey

 
SamBeasley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Member GG#: 41173
Location: Miami Beach
Posts: 1,385
Comments: 1
Send a message via AIM to SamBeasley Send a message via Yahoo to SamBeasley

SamBeasley is offline IP: 65.4.228.4
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

[ QUOTE ]
...trust me negs will scratch even with the greatest of care.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I know all too well. While I was in school I developed some negs I had really high hopes for, and one image in particular that would have looked great had a nice long scratch across the whole thing. Of course, we were also told, after all processing was done, to put the film between our fingers and run them down the film, using our fingers as a squeegee to help it dry quicker.

I don't do that anymore. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Sam
  View Public Profile Send a private message to SamBeasley Visit SamBeasley's homepage! Find More Posts by SamBeasley
 
Re: black & white films and hardening fixers question
Old 03-08-2005, 12:37 PM   #6 (permalink)
Evangelical Ne'er-do-well

 
ChipBulgin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Member GG#: 42306
Location: Severna Park, MD
Posts: 482
Comments: 0
Send a message via Yahoo to ChipBulgin

ChipBulgin is offline IP: 68.49.128.240
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

If you do scratch a neg, try Edwal No-Scratch. It's a liquid oil-like substance that you apply to both sides of the negative before enlargement. The oil has a refractive index similar to acetate film-bases and it eliminates or reduces the appearance of the scratch in your print. When you're done, use a film cleaner and negative-safe wipe to remove the stuff.

Another tip for you. If your negative comes out a little flat, you can get results similar to N+1 development (expansion of negative densities above zone VI) by agitating your negatives in selenium toner diluted 1:2 or 1:3 for about five minutes. It's basically an intensification process, but it only affects the high values. As a side benefit, it doesn't increase the appearance of grain like N+1 development normally does. You can use this technique in combination with N+1 development to get N+2 development with todays modern thin-emulsion films.

-Chip
  View Public Profile Send a private message to ChipBulgin Find More Posts by ChipBulgin
 
Re: black & white films and hardening fixers question
Old 03-08-2005, 02:39 PM   #7 (permalink)
Bawdy Little Monkey

 
SamBeasley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Member GG#: 41173
Location: Miami Beach
Posts: 1,385
Comments: 1
Send a message via AIM to SamBeasley Send a message via Yahoo to SamBeasley

SamBeasley is offline IP: 68.18.193.178
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

Oh yeah, I think I've heard of No-Scratch. I'll have to get some and try it out with some of my old negs.

I didn't know about the little selenium toner trick to intensify the high values. That's a pretty cool little trick. I'll be printing out your reply and taping it to my darkroom wall. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks!

Sam
  View Public Profile Send a private message to SamBeasley Visit SamBeasley's homepage! Find More Posts by SamBeasley
 
Re: black & white films and hardening fixers question
Old 03-08-2005, 05:51 PM   #8 (permalink)
Evangelical Ne'er-do-well

 
ChipBulgin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Member GG#: 42306
Location: Severna Park, MD
Posts: 482
Comments: 0
Send a message via Yahoo to ChipBulgin

ChipBulgin is offline IP: 68.49.128.240
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

If you don't have a copy already, pick up Ansel Adams' "The Negative". It is the definitive book on the zone system, and covers various developers, image intensification and reduction, etc. He covers the selenium toner subject very well.

-Chip
  View Public Profile Send a private message to ChipBulgin Find More Posts by ChipBulgin
 
Re: black & white films and hardening fixers question
Old 03-08-2005, 06:50 PM   #9 (permalink)
Lifetime Photographer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Member GG#: 35218
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 716
Comments: 0

Doug_Lester is offline IP: 66.245.97.226
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

As a guy who has shot Plus X and Tri X since they first came onto the market and still consider them to be my B&W film of choice, absolutely use a hardening fixer. Their emulsions are old technology and are SOFT, very soft. there are some better than Rapid Fix though, pick up most any other hardening fixer by Kodak, they all work.
  View Public Profile Send a private message to Doug_Lester Visit Doug_Lester's homepage! Find More Posts by Doug_Lester
 
Re: black & white films and hardening fixers question
Old 03-08-2005, 07:01 PM   #10 (permalink)
Bawdy Little Monkey

 
SamBeasley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Member GG#: 41173
Location: Miami Beach
Posts: 1,385
Comments: 1
Send a message via AIM to SamBeasley Send a message via Yahoo to SamBeasley

SamBeasley is offline IP: 68.18.193.178
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote

Nope, as much as I've become totally fascinated with the zone system, I still don't have a copy of "The Negative" yet. As soon as I can scrounge up a little cash...

Sam
  View Public Profile Send a private message to SamBeasley Visit SamBeasley's homepage! Find More Posts by SamBeasley
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Sponsors


New To Site? Need Help? Photographer & Model Links
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:22 PM.

© 1999-2017 Garage Glamour™




Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93