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Re: The Real Color of White-Lighting & Alien Bees
Old 10-21-2007, 11:29 PM   #11 (permalink)
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His statements are public and still out there, they must be answered. While I too would have preferred private, he chose not to, so I made a public post, as he did on forums. Thanks for your comments, rg sends!
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Re: The Real Color of White-Lighting & Alien Bees
Old 10-22-2007, 12:00 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolandogomez View Post
His statements are public and still out there, they must be answered. While I too would have preferred private, he chose not to, so I made a public post, as he did on forums. Thanks for your comments, rg sends!
From your screenshots, his post is 5 months old?
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Re: The Real Color of White-Lighting & Alien Bees
Old 10-22-2007, 12:13 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Yes, I stumbled into them about three weeks ago, then waited, between my travels to have to attorneys look at them. Apparently DPR and some other forums he posted on that I have not posted a screen shot for, still have his comments. Thanks, rg sends!
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Re: The Real Color of White-Lighting & Alien Bees
Old 10-22-2007, 08:42 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm going to respond to the technical side and the forum posts separately. RG, I hope you take this as intended. Honest, open feedback. Before I jump into it, let me say two things I respect you as a photographer, author and workshop instructor. But I shoot with a mix of Speedotron and WL -- acquired as far back as 1994.

Technical Data
Well, I never have understood the debate on watts. The amount of power discharged by the head's capacitor does not directly translate into light output. Stobes should be compared by bare lamp guide numbers at a distanced of 10 feet. Once any modifier is used -- even a simple reflector, the light output changes again depending on the degree spread of the reflector. All-in-all, the industry (WL and Hensel included) seems to want to use watts. I just went and looked at the Hensel USA site. No guide numbers that I could find. Not even in the PDF manuals. I blame light bulbs. BTW, the WL site does offer guide numbers for each head with 2 different reflectors.

I'd also like to see a chart of color temperature over the range of output and bulb life -- but I didn't see those on either site.

Selling Hensel...or Unselling BrandX?
I attended your GC Chicago workshops this year. First time I've met you. In both workshops you knocked AB/WL. I'm sure somewhere there is technical data to "prove" that a $700 light is better than a $300 light. After all, it cost more than twice as much ... it shouldn't all be profit margin. However, I left both workshops wondering why Hensel is better. I'd respectfully suggest that workshop participants would benefit more from learning why Hensel is a great choice than they do hearing why you don't like AB/WL.

After using the Hensels in your workshop, I say the fact that your photos are so much better than mine has very little to do with our brands of lights. You're a better photographer than I am! Period. If I had Hensels and you had a security light on the back of a porch, you'd still get better photos than me. I know...I saw them!

But seriously -- I really enjoyed your "Art of Lighting for Impact" discussion because you were talking about why you light a certain way. I think a discussion of why you use the brand you do is appropriate.

DP Forums Post
As to the slurs against you, I don't understand them. They're a sad example of how some people in this world let their anger get the better of them. All too often that takes the form of a racial slur. As a WL customer, I'm extremely disappointed -- enough so that were I making the decision to buy WL or not today, I'd not buy them.
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Re: The Real Color of White-Lighting & Alien Bees
Old 10-22-2007, 09:23 AM   #15 (permalink)
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It's no secret that I'm fond of the AB products and staff.

That said - I read the quote. I read it again. And again.

I'm wondering if there was a follow up or something before. All I saw was a guy discussing body "grease". He stated that you could see more if there was body grease.

How many shooters here use glycerine, baby oil, cooking oil, etc on bodies to increase reflectivity on skin? I've used it myself. I've seen your book, I've been at one of your workshops, and I know it's used by you.

I'd be the first to pick up the phone and say " What the fcuk!" to the staff over something racial. But this one is open to interpretation. Without knowing before or after... was there anything else? If anything, it seems like it was a pot-shot at your shooting style... and he owes you a few from how you dis his products here.

I swear with God as a witness that if I felt it were open and closed racial smear I'd stand right next to you on bashing them for it - but I don't think there's just one way to view the quote you pulled from the whole thing.

You can be pissed at me or even ban me - but I'm not one to jump on the bandwagon of making mountains out of a pond.
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Re: The Real Color of White-Lighting & Alien Bees
Old 10-22-2007, 11:39 AM   #16 (permalink)
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My ranadom notes about this discussion:

Just for the record so people can see the whole context of Buff's remarks and others, here is the link to the original thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=23129095

There are 78 posts in the thread, so you need to look at it in the threaded view and use the search to find the specific quotes. If you look in context on the grease post, for example, it is difficult to tell what Buff was talking about. I do find in general, that Buff sometimes makes inappropriate remarks. In one post, he called a person a "fool" for his remarks, for example. Any remarks that cast dispersions on a person's character or intelligence are not really very helpful in a technical discussion. One might think an idea is foolish for example, but one should not label the proponent of that idea as a fool.

Many people thought Einstein was a fool when he said the "ether" did not exist, and stories circulated how he had failed high school math, and was a dolt, and slow of mind. We all know where that story went. So attacking a person is never wise --- instead attack the ideas (or discuss them), but leave out the personalities as they can come back to bite you.

I think that all sides of issues must be discussed and each side must present whatever "facts" they have to support their view. It is very important, however, that the facts are there. But it is also important that we read between the lines. One person may present "facts" that are based on a "point of view" or a "way of looking at something" and that may obscure the facts. Also when presenting "facts", one must be sure to place them in context.

For example, Buff claims that RG was banned from Rangefinder -- so what did he mean?

Note to RG: I can't remember the exact story you tell in your workshops about having G1 ads banned by some magazine because they were glamour oriented. Was that Rangefinder? You then go on to tell how you then were invited to do articles for them and you were amused by the seeming contradiction of them having your articles on Glamour while at the same time rejecting your ads for G1. Anyway, could that be what Buff might have been referring to?

As you can see from all of the above, there are many ways these Internet threads can go and can spin out of control.

In my view Buff sometimes reacts to quickly and does not think through exactly what point he wants to make. This is an unwise choice for a CEO of a major lighting company. That being said, I would still consider any and every product a company makes irrespective of the CEO's remarks. Some CEO's are quite disconnected from the real world.

Well that's my 2 cents.

Cheers,
rfs
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Re: The Real Color of White-Lighting & Alien Bees
Old 10-22-2007, 11:42 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I'm going to do something you don't see here very often. I'm going to agree with Christian.

I have to wonder about the background of this discussion. (I can't find the original on dpreview -- can someone link it?) When I first read the screen shot, I interpreted it to be a comment on shooting style. The old Hispanic slur, which I haven't heard since West Side Story, didn't cross my mind. Now maybe there's some history here of which I am not aware, and if PB is really classless enough to use that slur, then I'll have to re-think my opinion (and I admit, the "European" comment does make me wonder).

Still, my initial reaction was that the comment was a reference to using Pam spray, or baby oil, in the shots.
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Re: The Real Color of White-Lighting & Alien Bees
Old 10-22-2007, 01:44 PM   #18 (permalink)
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When did Latinos steal my people's ethnic slurs? My grandparents came to this country from Italy and everyone knows that greasy guineas, i.e., greasy Italians, came here by floating on their grease AND they came here With Out Papers (WOPs). It's getting so an ethnic group can't even keep their own, hard-earned, slurs to themselves. I'm filing a complaint with the Ministry of Racial, Religious, and Ethnic Slurs or whoever is in charge of such stuff.
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Re: The Real Color of White-Lighting & Alien Bees
Old 10-22-2007, 02:59 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyd View Post
When did Latinos steal my people's ethnic slurs? My grandparents came to this country from Italy and everyone knows that greasy guineas, i.e., greasy Italians, came here by floating on their grease AND they came here With Out Papers (WOPs). It's getting so an ethnic group can't even keep their own, hard-earned, slurs to themselves. I'm filing a complaint with the Ministry of Racial, Religious, and Ethnic Slurs or whoever is in charge of such stuff.

Thats what I was wondering....did the slurs get mixed up? cuz I thought it was the italians too that had the "greasy" slur. Im just glad they left us Peckerwoods, and White cracker asses out of this one!

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Re: The Real Color of White-Lighting & Alien Bees
Old 10-22-2007, 03:06 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Perhaps this will clear up the issue on this particular slur and its origin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greaser_(derogatory)

See the very end of the article for the term that was sometimes used in reference to Italians.

Also see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greaser_%28subculture%29

for the 50's use of the term (and remember movies like Grease).

cheers,
rfs
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