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Trade for Prints/CD, what's fair?
Old 04-05-2007, 05:37 PM   #1 (permalink)
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I am looking for responses from both photographers and models, beginners, amateurs or pros.

I have read what a couple posts have said about giving CD/DVD's of all images, high and low resolution, limited or total rights, shared rights, etc. what copyright issues arise? Approval of image usage, model releases, etc.

What is really fair? I would be inclined to say, what is a "real" model's rate, $10-$1000 per hour? Plus styling, wardrobe, props, make up, etc.

What are a "real Photographer's" rates. $10-$1000 per hour, plus images, prints, usage, expenses, etc.

Obviously, the rate would depend on ability, experience, facilities (for the photog or heck even maybe the model), nature of the images, head shots, nudes, adult, etc.

My initial reaction is that the photogs are giving too much away. If you trade time for time, experience for experience, the the photog still has more invested in the shoot, from raw materials, to wear and tear on equipment to studio space rental or other costs. Both parties have to train, so that may be a wash depending on their relative levels of experience.

My inclination is to trade time for time for experienced models and then charge for the rest, and lower cost session fees for beginners.

Otherwise, I would say be my model for this (test shoot, light test, image style) and I will execute a certain type of single image, (not frames of exposures, I shoot lots) that you want to add to your portfolio and will give you a print for your book. If you want to order reproduction pieces, I can sell them to you or license reproduction rights for a fee.

I keep hear about photographers can't afford to get this or that. It maybe because you are too busy giving away what you have to sell. This is based on a business model for photography rather that just a hobby of shooting pretty girls.

Photogs are probably only second to amateur magicians in giving away what they do, at the drop of a hat.

If an image is worth at least $25 a piece (insert your own number here) any you put 100 on a CD and a typical model fee is $300 (insert your own number here) why would a photog give away $2500 worth of pictures for $300 worth of services?

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Re: Trade for Prints/CD, what's fair?
Old 04-05-2007, 06:00 PM   #2 (permalink)
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My day rate is 1600 + expenses. I do one TFCD per year. That's it, no more no less. I'm up front with the model ahead of time and explain what I do and what I expect in return.

I give them CD(s) of images sized 8x12 & 4x6 at a resolution of 300. They also receive the same images sized for web in a large and small version. I provide wardrobe and if needed a MUA. I also provide them with a release allowing them to use the images for any and all promo purposes up to and including selling the images on their website and having them printied as needed. I don't limit them on time or number of images. If things are "clicking", we keep working. Most of these shoots run about 2 1/2 to 3 hours including clothing and/or set changes.

In return, I get a signed model release allowing me use of the photos with no restrictions. These usually end up at one of my stock agencies. In the event one of the images sells for more than a few hundred bucks, I mail the model a check for half. This isn't stipulated anywhere, it's just something I do.

My situation is different than most, but it works for me and those I chose to work with.

R
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Re: Trade for Prints/CD, what's fair?
Old 04-05-2007, 06:05 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Hi,

If you're in business, then I'd approach it differently from the hobbyist, as you mentioned.

As a pro, first figure out how much income you want and can realistically expect. We're working backwards here.

Start with your desired Net Income.

=> then add your taxes

=> then add your expenses and capital expenditures (be sure to add in equipment, rentals, insurance, studio costs and everything else)

=> equals your revenue


Now, how many clients and how many hours do you plan on working. Determine your rate. You might have to do this exercise iteratively because you find that your hourly rate is too high. Then you have to either cut your expenses or lower you income expectations.


I doubt that there is a magic formula for paying a model. There was a model recently who asked the same question, but from her perspective. Again, no easy or one answer.

I think once you have mapped out your costs and planned number shoots, you'll soon find out what does and does not make sense. All this is short form for creating a small business plan.

Here's an excellent link to help you along:

http://www.nppa.org/professional_dev...db/cdbcalc.cfm

It's a quick guide to help you plan your daily rate to cover your expenses.

That's how I would approach your situation. I would make sure that I am bringing in sufficient revenue to stay ahead of the game. Once you have mapped out your plan, you'll be able to decide what you can and cannot do.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Kevin
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Re: Trade for Prints/CD, what's fair?
Old 04-05-2007, 06:06 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Well, speaking of the amateur magician first, they would naturally do magic at the drop of a hat, because they are amateurs, not pros. The Pro magician will do magic often for people he meets, but that would be in the form of advertising. If people see great magic in a casual setting, they are very likely to remember that magician and be willing to hire him in the future. I have done casual magic for people at parties that led to TV commercials, shows, ad spots, and a nice revenue stream.

The same thing may be true in photography, but to a much lesser degree. The line has been blurred in photography with the proliferation of digital cameras that allow most anyone to do a credible job of making reasonably good photos (if for no other reason, blind luck, because of the large number of photographs taken, or based on the feedback given by an instant preview of the shot on the LCD).

Those of us who have done professional photography always had hobbyist photographers to deal with but in the past it was rare to find a hobbyist who could really deliver when the chips were down. A hobbyist with a film camera trying to shoot a wedding was almost always a disaster and everyone was more or less aware that that might be the case. Now you can have someone shoot a wedding and shoot a 1000 pictures and they're almost bound to get 20 or 30 good shots which will probably satisfy many people. As far as commercial work, really the non-pro photographer would never have been considered, because no one would have known he was there. Now everyone has a camera, everyone is a photographer and when a company wants commercial photography (such as product shots), there is often someone right in their own organization who step up and say he/she can shoot the shots. And often, they can, as its amazing what you can do with these small light tent kits that every camera store is selling now days.

But I think we need to be realistic on how we approach TFP or TFCD. If I agree to shoot with a model in that mode, then its because I want to work on some interesting projects of my own and find it easier to just deal with it as a trade. Naturally at least half or more of the shots may have nothing to do with what the model wants so we are not really giving them a whole CD of usable images.

I think TFP/CD has little to do with how much we charge for our professional services. When we are shooting TFP/CD we are doing it for our own artistic reasons or to test something or other, etc. If its a professional deal, then we charge whatever is reasonable for our area. But if it is a paying deal, then the model would expect to have us deal only with the type of shots she wants.

As far as what release is given, that is all negotiable. I usually specify that I'll give them a CD of all shots and they will be in 600x400 format (with my copyright overlaid across the image). In other words low resolution. I then usually agree to work up 3 or 4 shots of their choice for their portfolio. I get a full release for the use of the photos. I give the model a release for use of the photos for their portfolio or book use and they have to leave my copyright notice on the image. Again, it all depends on what we agree on.

Often the model will come back and want more images than the 3 or 4 shots. In that case, I would charge for additional work to post process and prepare the images.

Cheers,
rfs
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Re: Trade for Prints/CD, what's fair?
Old 04-05-2007, 06:11 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVMD View Post
In return, I get a signed model release allowing me use of the photos with no restrictions. These usually end up at one of my stock agencies.
I am curious about two things. One, I seem to recall that there can be issues with a completely open model release in that the image might not be used appropriately. For example, a woman poses for you and the image is sold to a pharmaceutical company for use in one of its advertisements for cancer (as an example). Now, everyone associates her image with cancer. Have you read or come across such issues?

And two, from everything that I am reading, stock agencies are paying less and becoming more difficult to deal with. I am curious as to your experiences. Below is a good blog article addressing that theme.

http://rising.blackstar.com/index.ph...temid=99999999

Thank you for considering my questions.
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Re: Trade for Prints/CD, what's fair?
Old 04-05-2007, 06:25 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The answer to my first question is given here:

http://www.simslaw.com/model/model_r...sworthy_Events

And for those looking for release forms, here is a link:

http://www.nppa.org/professional_dev...ices/releases/
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Re: Trade for Prints/CD, what's fair?
Old 04-05-2007, 06:39 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Thanks for the replies so far. I just want to clarify something.

I am not looking for a lesson on how to set prices for a business. Nor am I looking to find out what other photographers are charging for their day rate, print rate, etc. I am asking what is the thinking behind the industry practice of TFP & TFCD?

The day rate what just an illustration of the relationship of the model to the photographer value.

I don't want me or anyone else to give away the farm, nor do I want to gyp the model. In looking at the described practices (not this thread) it seemed like they were giving an awful lot for a little to the model. Maybe I am not seeing the big picture, so that is why the question was asked.

I'd like to gather a few more replies and then I will have some follow up questions if you don't mind.

Thanks again.
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Re: Trade for Prints/CD, what's fair?
Old 04-05-2007, 06:50 PM   #8 (permalink)
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As a "amature/hobby" photographer who is basicly in it for the love...IF i can get someone in front of my camera on a TFP/CD basis...I only get a portfolio/promo use only on and off-line ( for both of us ) release signed...As I work as a Bagger at a Food store ... I can not afford mua's , studios, and all that good stuff... The last TFCD I did.. I took 60 shots and trimmed it down to 20 and burned a CD of those for the model... But that was a digital shoot... the last Film (6x7 ) I did 30 frames and gave the model 10 images... What you give is basicly what you and the model do or don't agree on...As I can not afford to PAY models... and can not offer most models better then what they already have...i kinda have to find total newbies and hope I get lucky...
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Re: Trade for Prints/CD, what's fair?
Old 04-06-2007, 07:27 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgphoto View Post
I am asking what is the thinking behind the industry practice of TFP & TFCD?
I don't know that there are one or two answers that will answer your question...

Here is my take...I have 2 websites to maintain and to keep the content fresh I have to shoot quite a few models. These are not paysites, just the sites I refer potential customers for my paid work. So most of the TFP I shoot is to keep my websites fresh as well as my online portfolios. I am in agreement with you on the investment part...I DO believe the photographer has a bit more invested in a TFP than does the model, BUT even if it were a level playing field, ya still gotta have a model to shoot...so its a Catch 22.

Ask 5 photographers their TFP "conditions" and I bet you get 4 to 5 different answers. My TFP arrangement is as follows. I will TRADE the images the model seeks for her portfolios for the images I am seeking for mine at the time. I have had a few times where after we shot a few of the models images and I began segueing into MY themes, the model would change her mind and change the agreement...easy fix...shoot over and I cancelled the shoot after just a few images were taken. I even had one model tell me (after we agreed on a TFP shoot) recently about 10 hours before the shoot that she "was so excited....can't wait to begin...has all kind of ideas...BUT I've decided not to do any type of glamour or implied nudity like we discussed...it will STAIN me"...So I cancelled the shoot. She was taken back and asked, "So you'll only shoot with me if I take my clothes off?""..I said absolutely untrue...what you are wanting is a basic "portait" and casual shoot which I will shoot ALL DAY LONG...BUT you are gonna have to pay me for my services..."But I don't have any money"...thats why I offered you the TFP Ms Model...you didn't have the ability to pay for the photography but stated you were comfortable with implied nudity so I offered a fair trade and now you want to renig and only YOU receive the images YOU want...not a fair trade...shoot cancelled..

Personally in any TFP, I try and shoot all the images they seek within reason. Some nice headshots, some fashion, glamour...whatever style they are trying to pursue. I provide my TFP shoots with a CD of a minimum of 30 fully processed images in HIGH and LOW res. I process all at 9x12 300PPi and then web size them at 600 size and 100ppi...in many cases they get more than 30. Many people ask why I give so many images away. Its simple...If I'm gonna work em up for me anyway, why not push a button and put on a CD to make the "customer" happy...Simple marketing. I treat every shoot ...Paid or TFP...as a potential for bigger and better things down the road. The magazine, clothing line and calendars that I shoot for now or ALL direct results of a TFP shoot. I have booked 6 paid PRIVATE boudoir/glamour shoots in the last week...and 4 out of the 6 are referrals from friends on models I have shot in the past and 2 are from my website which has been built much on TFP.

I don't look at it as a FREE shoot by any means...Kirk is right...there is wear and tear on the equipment, studio costs, processing time, props, seamless etc....The model is there for 3 hours give or take and she is done...not saying she doesn't work hard...(and to be honest without her/him, you have no shoot anyway) BUT their investment is much less in my opinion than the togs.

Why do I shoot TFP...marketing as a loss leader...just another form of investing in MY business..
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Re: Trade for Prints/CD, what's fair?
Old 04-06-2007, 10:32 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_G View Post
I provide my TFP shoots with a CD of a minimum of 30 fully processed images in HIGH and LOW res. I process all at 9x12 300PPi and then web size them at 600 size and 100ppi...in many cases they get more than 30.
Bobby, do you, like RFS, have your copyright overlaid across the image? I am just curious if most photographers follow this procedure.
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