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Photographers, I Need Your Feedback :::
Old 01-25-2008, 06:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Hi folks - I would like your feedback on something........

I've been doing Glamour Photography Workshops since back in the summer here in Los Angeles. Out of all the folks who have attended..only a few have complained that I don't allow the attendants to spend time photographing some models. Most of those who attend understand my position on this which is....nobody wants to go to a workshop and sit around watching a bunch of other guys who know less than they do about photography - take turns shooting a model.

I've attended numerous workshops over the years and one thing that really pi$$ed me off when attending some of these workshops is sitting around watching other people shoot a model who know less then I do about Photography. I would much rather spend my time watching someone shoot a model who has reached some level of success and who has mastered some of the things that I want to master. I want to watch, take notes, ask questions and walk around the set looking at the setup from every angle. Then take that knowledge back home, hire a model and start practicing. This was the process that I most liked when attending a workshop.

The few folks who have complained about me now allowing them to spend time shooting models are folks who want to take what they have learned and practice it immediately while I watch and critique their performance. This I can understand and appreciate. But there are still a lot of guys standing around waiting their turn and that seems like a waste of time for me.

The few workshops that I've ever been to where I feel that I got my moneys worth were workshops where I watched, listened, took notes and asked questions. All the other workshops were a complete waste of time and money.

So here's my question(s) to you:

"Do you feel that you cannot get your moneys worth at a workshop unless you are able to shoot some girls at the workshop?"

"What would be the ideal workshop for you?"

Thanks guys,

-Dean

My February 2008 Penthouse Magazine Cover featuring Bree Olson
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Re: Photographers, I Need Your Feedback :::
Old 01-25-2008, 06:50 PM   #2 (permalink)
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As Friday winds down, I will toss my thoughts into the frenzy that might follow.

The comments I am making are after reading from your workshop website. Since I am attending an event this weekend it will be interesting to see what comments are made the next two days.

I believe most guys who spend $400 for one day, are expecting more than just watching you shoot nude models. I can certainly understand your thoughts about standing around waiting, because I have done that.

Mose of the events I have attended have been "association" functions, such as the PPA or their affiliates. Those are mostly sitting and taking notes, but never nudes.. portrait, commercial, and wedding photography. However those events only range from $75 for a day or two, or in the case of a convention maybe $200 for 3 or 4 days on various subjects.

Some of the affiliated schools cost in the neighborhood of $400, but that is for 4 to 5 days of classroom instruction, and some allow shooting "samples" of the setups.. again not nude.

Since you are getting complaints, perhaps it is time to think about some separate time for those. But, I also understand the ramifications of that. Once a dear friend of mine, now deceased, would travel around with his young lovely wife as a model. He had a difficult time with the gawkers and wannabes who wanted to shoot .. shall I say.. unposed poses. Some that would cause embarrassment.

I once hosted Peter Gowland (long time ago), and we had a time for photographers to shoot models.. not nude, but lingerie, and all they had to do was send prints. I also hosted Steve Palen from Las Vegas, a prominent glamour photographer, and also asked for prints for models.

Both photographers told me I would probably get only 2 out of 10 photographers who would follow through, which was exactly right.

With all that said, only you can determine how to run your workshops, but I will pose (no pun intended) a question. If only you shoot and demonstrate lighting and posing techniques, and perhaps show how to select wardrobe, and maybe some props or backgrounds why is it even necessary to have nude models.

For the record, I am not being a prude.. nayyyy... I can photograph neeeked ladies all day long, but when you promote the workshop with this:

WARNING: This workshop may contain very explicit nudity. And show Penthouse models in all their glory,,,,

Well.. get my point.

Since you asked, my idea of a workshop would be some instruction, and then a chance to shoot a few images, and they would not even have to be nude. Just let the guys see how much they can do on their own in a specific time slot. Ever consider that?


To be honest, $400 seems like a lot of money to sit and look at naked girls and take note.


Everyone have a great weekend, maybe I will have something new next week.
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Re: Photographers, I Need Your Feedback :::
Old 01-25-2008, 06:55 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I can see benefits to both types of workshops and I've attended both types as far back as 1991. Some of the shooting workshops have been paparazzi-style affairs while others have been well organized shoots with 1:1 model-to-photographer ratios. They all have some benefit -- and a place in the world.

In terms of getting my money's worth, being able to take images home with me that I can use for my own self promotion in a book and online is important to me. At the price point of your workshops ($400) plus travel from Chicago (where I live), I'd be very unlikely to ever attend a "watch the pro" only session.

But images aren't the only thing of value by any means. I wouldn't be very likely to attend a local $400 "pass the PocketWizard" affair either. I do want to learn something about lighting, set design, model interaction, posing, etc. as well. And I want to look at the work of the photographer teaching the class and know in advance that he has been there and done that already.

But to get back to what I think you're asking, my ideal session is:

1) a photographer who has made a living making the type of images being demonstrated and who honestly wants to teach others

2) a model that has done the type of work being demonstrated and who enjoys the workshop setting

Too often, something is missing. The photographer shoots weddings and decided to hire some strippers promising them easy money...I'm sure you've heard the stories.

To bring it down to a short answer, I'd consider a "watch the pro" session that was priced at $250 or less. Above that and I'd expect to take home a few images.

-----

As I look back over the message I see it has the potential to be taken as a criticism of you or your workshops -- and I hope that doesn't happen. I've never even met you nor anyone that's ever said anything to me about your workshops.
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Re: Photographers, I Need Your Feedback :::
Old 01-25-2008, 08:00 PM   #4 (permalink)
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As I look back over the message I see it has the potential to be taken as a criticism of you or your workshops -- and I hope that doesn't happen.
Constructive criticism is always welcomed by me Chuck. If I weren't interested in what you guys thought, I wouldn't have posted the question. I don't expect everyone to agree with how I run my workshop - just as I don't expect everyone to like or appreciate the kind of Photography that I do or appreciate that I've had some success with my work. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and your opinion is what I've asked for.

The bottom line is that there is no way that I can please everyone. If I let some people shoot - others don't appreciate sitting around watching and waiting their turn. If I don't let anyone shoot - somebody is going to get their feelings hurt. All I can do is go from my own experiences with workshops. Do what I think is right and put on the kind of workshop that I think can help the most amount of people in the least amount of time. And just to be clear - only a few people have complained....a very small percentage of those who have attended. I have a testimonials page on my site from many satisfied people who have taken a moment to write. It's great when people come to me and say that they got their moneys worth in the first 2 hours of the workshop

Regarding BenE's question about why it's necessary to shoot nudes. Ben, I'm a Glamour/Nude Photographer - I shoot nudes for a living. I think people expect to come to my workshop and "watch me do what I do". If I'm going to teach the finer points of lighting the female nude body - it only makes sense to me that I should use a nude model and at some point - she needs to be nude. Some of the models that I am working with have their own paysites and part of my deal with them is to furnish them with images from the workshop to use on their paysites. The models are the ones who determine how explicit the pictures will be - not me. And so far I've not had one complaint about me using nude models in my workshops

I've had many attendees travel from all over the US to attend one of my workshops so I know that even though the workshop might not be perfect and please everyone - all in all it's a great program that beats the hell out of most of the programs out there. It's not perfect but I don't think you can have a perfect workshop and please everyone. All anyone can do is try to please most everyone and do the best that they can do.
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Re: Photographers, I Need Your Feedback :::
Old 01-25-2008, 08:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I believe most guys who spend $400 for one day, are expecting more than just watching you shoot nude models.
My program is WAY MORE than just sitting around watching me shoot models. Since we only shoot 4 sets of pictures that day - watching me shoot is actually a very small part of the program.

Quote:
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Some of the affiliated schools cost in the neighborhood of $400, but that is for 4 to 5 days of classroom instruction, and some allow shooting "samples" of the setups.. again not nude.
I seriously doubt that any school is going to put on a 4-day Glamour/Nude Workshop hosted by an industry professional who actually makes his/her living shooting Glamour/Nude Photography. We are talking apples & oranges if you are comparing what I do to what a school does. David Mecey does a 4-day workshop but it runs about $3000. Nobody in this industry who makes a living doing what I do is going to teach a 4-day workshop for $400.

Quote:
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To be honest, $400 seems like a lot of money to sit and look at naked girls and take note.
What about having the ability to watch as I setup some of my favorite lighting setups and discuss why I do it this way? What about the ability to ask me questions anytime throughout the day about my lighting setups, my white balance process, styling the set, picking out wardrobe, metering or my post processing technique? What about the ability to pick my brain about anything and everything that makes shooting Glamour/Nude Photography such a challenge? I literally answer hundreds of questions from attendees at my workshops. They have full-access to me all day long to ask anything that they want to ask. Can you put a price tag on that?

Ben, my workshops are more than just "sitting around and looking at naked girls and taking notes". If that was all my workshop was about - I seriously doubt I would be able to get anyone to attend. As it stands today - people fly in from all over to attend.
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Re: Photographers, I Need Your Feedback :::
Old 01-26-2008, 10:13 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I just finished a week at the FotoFusion event in Delray Beach. As part of that I did 3 nude shoots, 2 - 3 hours apiece, model ratio about 1:3. The instructors were Kevin Ames, Vincent Versace, Andrea Modica and Craig Blacklock - all published fashion &/or fine art photographers who are passionate about what they do. Since these are not pro models, and to keep the cost down, the pictures are not allowed to be published or shared, they are for improving your technique.

In some ways these are "paparazzi" style shoots but the instructors try to give an overall theme and see that everyone gets their shooting time. One of the biggest results I have gotten out of these shoots is an improvement in my direction to the model, just through practice and the constant demand of the instructors (and the models) that we interact with the model and tell them what we want to see (while at the same time encouraging them to contribute any ideas they might have). This is an important instructional aspect that I think gets missed in a "demo only" class as it HAS to be practiced to gain confidence.

BTW, I would recommend FotoFusion to everybody - Rolando goes every year too and, although I didn't have the guts to walk up and say hi, Holly D. was at the opening reception. It is 5 days of a lot of very informational stuff, presented by some of the top people in photography.
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Re: Photographers, I Need Your Feedback :::
Old 01-26-2008, 01:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Here is what I am thinking...If you are not one of those lucky ones with good looking friends...And your work is not "pro" level ....and you can not afford lots of money to hire models...It can at times be hard finding models to do trade...a work shop where you can shoot as well...can seem a handy way to learn something...and get some images to show future subjects...

I do have to say though money would be a factor....
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Re: Photographers, I Need Your Feedback :::
Old 01-26-2008, 02:56 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I've attended 20 or 30 workshops over the last 30 years --- everyone from Dean Collins to Peter Gowland. This also includes a number of RG workshops. These workshops were all over the spectrum in how they were presented. Each has had value for the most part, but each addressed a different need.

Let me give some examples of presentation methods:

Dean Collins was a straight lecture type presentation and for what he presented that worked very well. He had lots of printed materials and was very engaging in his presentation. He showed examples of how he would light sets but he also emphasized the fact that many attendees would not have the funds to buy expensive equipment, so he showed how to build your own (using PVC pipes Ė he even sold a book called Tinkertubes to show you how to make softboxes, light stands, etc Ė the book has now been placed in the public domain).

Rolando on the other hand presents two radically different types of workshops and each work well depending on your needs.

For example, his 4 day events allow photographers to break into teams of two and do a 2 to 3 hour shoot with a model (pro model and pro make-up) and a variety of high end lighting equipment. With a team of two, one can act as the assistant half the time. Interspersed in all this is lots of example lighting setups, discussions, and teaching. During the 4 days you shoot 5 models plus a number of group shots around the pool area. By the way, even though lots of pro level equipment is available, you often end up just using a reflector or scrim.

The other style is the 1 and 2 day affair that allows for about 1/2 day of instruction and 1/2 day of shooting (each day). One comes away from each of these types of shoots with lots of photos. Depending on how well the photographer listens and pays attention they may even come away with some very usable photos. Note: The cost of these 2 day workshops is $299 to $399 so they are very affordable.

In both of the RG style shoots, since they are generally over 1 day, you get the chance to show photos you taken the first day and get immediate feedback. You also get the advantage of comments that RG makes as he watches you shoot. This also extends to other photographers making comments --- which are sometimes helpful.

So, one point to be aware of, is that immediate feedback can be very valuable. With a lecture, examples and questions type workshop, one often misses obvious questions that would have arisen if hands-on was included.

Most people go to a lecture style workshop and come away with a lot of good ideas and are enthusiastic about trying the things they've seen, but they never actually try them for lack of models and equipment and a good place to shoot.

As others noted, one of the benefits of a workshop may be the ability to shoot with pro models, with pro make-up and with pro equipment and thus add to a portfolio that may make it possible for them to then attract models in their own area to work with. I've found that most photographers find it difficult to get models if they have nothing to show them in the glamour style arena. Itís a Catch-22!

I was sort of puzzled by your approach to asking for feedback. You start by asking for that feedback, but then you present your arguments up front for why you disagree with the feedback you are likely to get. I think it would have been better to ask for the feedback, but not present your counter arguments up front. This might have gotten more feedback. I think several good points have been raised in the responses you have gotten.

Now just a few other small notes:

Whether a workshop allows shooting or not, one thing it should always allow is the ability of the attendee to take lighting shots. In all the workshops I've ever been to, be they Collins, Gowland, Pierce, Gomez, etc, you were always allowed to take quick photos of the lighting setups, etc. This is important, since often times, mere notes and sketches of these setups will not be adequate later on.

So how might you incorporate shooting into your current workshops and still meet the goals you have for the workshops and to also answer some of your arguments against such shooting.

I would say that it might pay to setup up a shooting period where each photographer shoots for 5 or 10 minutes and then you critique what you observed. Would this be beneficial? Very! Why? Well its immediate feedback. The photographer is immediately shown where they might have gone wrong and what they can do to correct the problem. The other photographers watching will gain from this also, since often they would have made the same mistakes. Now, as each photographer shoots, they should, in theory, do a better job than the last photographer because they have the combined wisdom learned in the previous 10 minute sessions.

Another way to approach the above is to do a 5 minute session, critique it, and then let them shoot another 5 minutes to reinforce what they've learned. One might also have two rounds of shooting. In round One, each photographers shoots for 5 minutes and then a brief critique is offered. In Round Two each photographer shoots again and improves based on what they learned from the first round.

If you did the above, and also gave a promotional release, then each photographer would go away with what they already do from your lecture/answer question approach/by example and would have some good photos to use for attracting more models so that they could try shooting on their own with some of what they have learned.

Another issue is the level of pro lighting equipment that is often used in these lectures. While itís wonderful to see such equipment in use, it is often beyond the budget of the photographer who would like to shoot glamour, but probably never will as a pro, since itís a very limited market with lots of people competing for the few slots that are available. So I would recommend keeping the lighting simple for some of the sets and using equipment that would be available to anyone. One example of this is a local pro photographer in my area that gives workshops which use equipment and sets that one can build themselves, but get pro level results. This often opens up glamour type shooting to those who can't afford it.

Finally, why do people go to Glamour photography workshops? They want to do this kind of photography because itís fun, creative and they want more than the routine of shooting portraits or landscapes. But will 90% of the people who go, ever do it at a pro level? Probably not? So mainly they go for the entertainment value of such workshops. If it were otherwise, I think you would see a lot more women attending. But the women photographers who attend are few and far between.

Well, this is my long, rambling, disconnected post in response to your request for feedback. I hope there is something that you can extract from it that will make some sense.

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Re: Photographers, I Need Your Feedback ::: 

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Re: Photographers, I Need Your Feedback :::
Old 01-26-2008, 04:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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II was sort of puzzled by your approach to asking for feedback. You start by asking for that feedback, but then you present your arguments up front for why you disagree with the feedback you are likely to get.
Actually rfs, I never wanted to present an argument at all. But when somebody who has never been to one of my workshops comes on here and says that $400 is a bit much to pay to sit around looking at naked girls and taking notes - I had to speak up. My workshop is so much more than that and I thought that statement was very unfair for someone to say... especially someone who has never attended one of my workshops and knows nothing about how they are presented.

I see that as a bit of an attack on me and my workshop. How can someone make that statement who has no knowledge of what they are talking about? Your telling me your puzzled because I defended myself and my workshop against a statement like that? Are you serious? So you would just sit back and allow people to say whatever they want if they were talking negatively about one of your projects?

Folks, I'm very interested in your feedback to my "two simple questions." I am not interested in listening to you attack me or my workshop if you don't know what your talking about. I find it offensive for someone to critique my workshop who has never been to my workshop and has no idea what my workshop entails.

Thanks,

-Dean
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Re: Photographers, I Need Your Feedback :::
Old 01-26-2008, 05:11 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Actually rfs, I never wanted to present an argument at all. But when somebody who has never been to one of my workshops comes on here and says that $400 is a bit much to pay to sit around looking at naked girls and taking notes - I had to speak up. My workshop is so much more than that and I thought that statement was very unfair for someone to say... especially someone who has never attended one of my workshops and knows nothing about how they are presented.

I see that as a bit of an attack on me and my workshop. How can someone make that statement who has no knowledge of what they are talking about? Your telling me your puzzled because I defended myself and my workshop against a statement like that? Are you serious? So you would just sit back and allow people to say whatever they want if they were talking negatively about one of your projects?

Folks, I'm very interested in your feedback to my "two simple questions." I am not interested in listening to you attack me or my workshop if you don't know what your talking about. I find it offensive for someone to critique my workshop who has never been to my workshop and has no idea what my workshop entails.

Thanks,

-Dean
There doesn't seem to be any context for what you're saying above. You started this thread and I didn't see any attacks referred to. You said you wanted feedback, but then launched into arguments about the feedback you expected to get. Perhaps I missed some other post to which you are referring, but if so, you should probably have linked to it or pointed it out in your initial post. Now BenE does raise the price issue in his response to your post, but that is after the fact, so I know you were not referring to that.

I don't see any problem with what fee is charged, if people are willing to pay it, and are happy with what they get. But you bring up the issue of some people complaining about what they got, so perhaps there is something to the issue. I tried to be helpful in my post and went into considerable detail of different ways to look at a workshop.

So your response to my post, comes off in my view, as somewhat of an attack on me, which is unfair, in my view, because I didn't say anything about he cost of your workshop nor did I criticize your workshop.

Cheers,
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