Photographers, I Need Your Feedback :::

[DeanCapture]

Originally Posted by Brennans_Photography

Dean,
I agree with DanNv above 100%. Long before this thread was started, I checked out your website about this workshop. What really turned me off were two things. First, no cameras were allowed. I don't think I would want to attend a workshop where my camera wasn't allowed for me to follow along during the instructions. Second, the website says, “I” (meaning you) will be taking the photos. This told me, I was not going to be able to do the same thing. One problem with that is, that I have a 30% memory disability (resulting from a car accident) and would never be able to retain what you are teaching me without doing it myself soon after being instructed to do it.
As far as the cost goes, your instruction may very well be worth it, but to me, bringing home a few photos for my portfolio is very important as well. This will help with the catch 22 that RFS speaks of.
I too, like DanNv, have never attended a workshop. Although, I am saving to attend one soon! Hopefully it will be Rolando’s Exotic Glamour, Beauty & the Nude workshops, in the Virgin Islands. I do believe you get to use your photos from his workshop for your own portfolio.

Pete

Hi Pete - first of all...I'm sorry to learn about your car accident and your memory disability.

Secondly...I would only hope that anyone in the future who has an illness of this sort would contact me to discuss some options that would be available for that person. I would try my best to be as flexible as possible with anyone in your shoes and accommodate them as best I could.

Good luck at Rolando's workshop - I hope you get a portfolio full of beautiful images

[photoshooter]

Dean, you asked a question here and on glamourmodel.com and who knows where else. People have been honest with their answers and if you don't like some of those answers then may be doing the workshop your style ought to be reconsidered by you, offer something else that attendees will like. What I am seeing from what was said I don't think I ever be caught dead in the type of workshop your described, in my mind it amounts to teaching driver education without a car. Don't let this get to you, we are NOT against you, but you need to adapt to the markets. There are many workshop operators who make hell lot of more money from doing it than they would from actually just doing the photography alone. Best wishes(:-)

[DeanCapture]

Originally Posted by photoshooter

People have been honest with their answers and if you don't like some of those answers then may be doing the workshop your style ought to be reconsidered by you,

I'm sorry...have you bothered to read any of my replies? This is not about me agreeing or disagreeing to peoples answers. If people would have stuck to the questions - we would be fine. Instead, I have people saying that $400 is too much to sit around looking at naked girls and taking notes. First of all - that's not what my program is about. Secondly, all of my previous workshops have sold-out so apparently there are some people out there who see value in what I'm teaching. I don't expect everyone to see a value and I'm fine with that - but I also don't expect people to talk negatively about my workshop when they have absolutely nothing to base it on. Are we clear on this?

Originally Posted by photoshooter

What I am seeing from what was said I don't think I ever be caught dead in the type of workshop your described, in my mind it amounts to teaching driver education without a car.

I can totally respect your opinion on this. There are certain skills that can only be learned by "doing". I see this and I understand this. But for my 1-day workshops - there's simply not enough time to allow everyone to spend quality time shooting models and still get all the info that I think people should know. It's been my experience that most who come to my workshop are happy to come, watch, take notes, ask questions, meet others who share their love for photography and take all that info back home and start practicing. This is also the way that I like to learn. I can respect however that not everyone thinks like me.

Originally Posted by photoshooter

Don't let this get to you, we are NOT against you, but you need to adapt to the markets.

The only thing that got to me was people talking negatively about my program. I have no issue with people have a different opinion then I do. I do have an issue when people want to talk negatively about my program when they have nothing to base it on.

Originally Posted by photoshooter

There are many workshop operators who make hell lot of more money from doing it than they would from actually just doing the photography alone. Best wishes

This has nothing to do with money. I make more shooting for my clients then I do running one of my workshops. Since you've never been to one of my workshops - this may be hard for you to understand. My workshops are done in large expensive multi-million dollar mansions that cost quite a bit of money to rent. I have 3 photo-assistants working with me on the workshops as well as a very talented professional hair/makeup artist. I also employ successful nationally published models to work with me and they cost money. Not to mention that I also cover all snacks, drinks and even lunch. Yes this is a lot of overhead and if it were all about the money - I'd cut some corners and put more in my pocket. This is about a desire and a passion that I have to share with others some of my techniques for creating the kind of imagery that has gotten me work for some of the largest and most successful companies in this industry. Some people see value in that - some don't.

I came here and asked a couple of questions and the next thing I know I'm having to defend myself against negative attacks about my program from people who know nothing about my program and who have never experienced my program.

DanNV had the right idea. He answered the questions with a couple of short answers and then moved on. He has a different opinion then I do but I respect that. He did not attack my program or talk negatively about how I structure my program or how much I charge

Too bad some of you felt the need to stoop to that level of negativity when a couple of simple answers would have done the trick and got your point accross.

I'm finished with this thread.

Cheers,

-Dean

[Murphy66]

I'll make my response brief.

Been to three workshops, all in LA, two about glam shooting.

I'm currently in Beverly Hills shooting for TeaseUm for three days in a riduculous mansion.

1 - I wouldn't have been able to shoot my way into this gig had I not attended Dean's workshop. No BS, it's just true.

2 - I saw three major light setups the day of the workshop and as I change locations withing this ridiculous mansion, I am using much of what I learned at Dean's to help make decisions about lighting, softboxes, gels, etc. It's not purely Dean's setups but they were influenced by my getting to watch versus getting lectured to (as at the other glam workshop).

Dean, INHO, your feedback is going to based on so many things, not the least of which is the strength of the photographer. If a guy is never going to see a model as beautiful and work in studio lighting until the next workshop, then he's the guy who needs to take shots to impress his friends. If the next guy is already planning his next shoot and taking furious mental notes about how and why to do things, then he's not going to care about shooting THIS model when he's on the hook to shoot another one later.

Perhaps a little diligent screening would take care of this issue and making sure it's made clear up front that you'll be watching more than shooting. Personally, I got bored at point in the other workshop because all I saw were guys banging away getting their shots and showing each other their portfolios, all of which were taken at previous workshops. I didn't shoot much at that one or at yours, I wasn't there for that.

All the best to everyone!
Bob

[Bobby_G]

Dean, one of the issues you may encounter or are encountering now is your target audience. Your type A personality folks are impatient, visual guys and will feel the need to participate and will be impatient in most cases by watching someone else shoot...The type B personality guys will be more willing to sit back watch and learn...so whats the percentage of A vs B? who the hell knows LOL...but for YOUR WS's it's all about the marketing of that WS...

So you have someone that says $400 is too much to sit around and not capture images...So what??...fair argument from him cuz its HIS money...regardless of whether its true or not...whether you agree with it or not... OR if the WS can offer a learning opportunity...

The question becomes, is this "feedback" an isolated one or becoming more and more of the normal response?? Are you selling out your WS's?? Are they filling up quickly or are you still looking for attendees the week of the WS??

If there is no shooting involved, I would imagine the number of attendees you allow is MUCH higher than a WS that DOES allow for shooting (just guessing on my part) due to time and model constraints...You need to have a "number" as a goal...only you know where that comfort level needs to be..

So the word of the day pertaining to your workshop (and any WS really) is PERCEPTION

If the PERCEPTION is that $400 is TOO much to "sit around and watch" then YOU have to find a way to change that perception...especially if it is affecting the number of attendees you are getting. To change that perception you will have to change your marketing scheme...NO marketing schemes work forever...if they did, we'd still be seeing Frankie and Louie the lizards on every Budweiser commercial...

You will NEVER...and I mean NEVER convince everyone that $400 for a WS that does not allow actual shooting is worth it...There are too many other WS's that are the same price or lower that do offer "immediate satisfaction" and learning by allowing them to shoot and receive immediate feedback...

IMO for this type of WS you need a twofold marketing scheme...one that continues to feed those that DO like your current itenerary...AND one that addresses the "I want to shoot if I am gonna pay $400" mentality...

So, it sounds to me as though you have a strong following of those that believe your WS IS worth the money and is a great learning tool...THOSE are the ones you need to be interviewing and asking for feedback...because they DID pay and attend. If it were me, I would ask for feedback from those that state it was good and would attend another as well as those who stated they would NOT attend another...and I would focus on the latter because thats perceptionally where your obstacles are...

[studio32d]

Dean,

The answer to your first question depends on two factors:

1. The amount of money involved.
2. The prospective attendee's opinion of the hosting photographer's work and ability to instruct.

As to the matter of the ideal workshop, I'd grab my wallet for this:

1. Hosted by an accomplished photographer.
2. No more than 12 attendees.
3. Clearly defined and strictly enforced rules regarding attendee's behavior.
4. Early morning lecture session.
5. Late morning observation shoot. Host lights and shoots model, attendees observe.
6. Lunch.
7. Afternoon attendee shoot. Same set, model and lighting as host shoot. Each shooter has a time or frame count limit. Quick image review with host photographer.
8. From there -depending on time, talent and space- the shooting would continue with different models on the same set or perhaps additional models on different sets.
9. Full model releases available.
10. A second day would be preferred.

And now a few more points brought to you by the First Amendment. . .

I saw your post regarding your latest workshop. I was interested. I saw the line about you doing all the shooting. I was not interested. I'm not judging you or your offering- I simply made a choice as a consumer.

Your workshops sell out. Do the answers you asked for really matter?

I understand the frustration felt by many when it comes to "standing around watching other guys shoot." However, there is something to be learned by this. Sometimes, I see a photographer do something I want to try. Sometimes I see something another photographer does which may or may not work from his shooting position- but it works from mine. Often, I take that time to get a feel for the model, how she responds to different approaches. Mostly, I see a lot of what not to do. There's value there. (By the way, I'm sure the shooter behind me feels the same way.)

In one of your replies you mentioned the cost of renting the mansion used for the workshop. That has little to no value to me as a consumer if it doesn't function as a component of the images that I take home with me. For that matter, the marquee appeal of your model doesn't either. The stunning model and the opulent setting benefit you and the final recipient of the images, not the attendees - unless you allow for attendee shooting.

I can think of numerous reasons for your policy as it is. I took your post as an attempt to understand the logic behind the few complaints you have received and I've tried to provide that.

No attack here.

Murph
studio32d

[Brennans_Photography]

[DaveB]

Dean,

This is how I run my workshops:

The photographers that take my workshops know that it is a learning priority workshop. When I do an image set-up, I explain in detail my setup, the reason for it, why and how I am lighting, how to meter, pose, etc. I go over all aspects of the shot, then I shoot a sample image and print it on a 4 color printer, from camera to printer.

Then, each photographer get's 60 seconds to plug into my lights and capture the image, so they have something to take home and study. They each get 60 seconds to shoot each setup.

Hope that helps.

[BenE]

Dean,

First of all, let me apologize if my comment came across as an insult. That was not my intent, but looking at some of the comments, I can certainly see how that could be.

My comments wer made in reply to your original where you said....
So here's my question(s) to you:

"Do you feel that you cannot get your moneys worth at a workshop unless you are able to shoot some girls at the workshop?"

"What would be the ideal workshop for you?"

Thanks guys,

-Dean

............

And I should have prefaced it all by saying this iw perhaps what some of the guys who are making the "complaint" that you mentioned. So once again, accept my apology. As I also said, I was out of town until today, and didn't even look at the forum.

And after looking at my post, I also see where my comment about the "sitting back... etc.. should have been placed in context (by me). I was pasting some text and actually didn't re-arrange it as it should have been.

And note I also commented about a couple of other photographers who had problems allowing others to shoot. That wasn't made clear either.

With all that said, I understand your outrage at my post, and I should have not made it so hastily.

Back to the firsst (I probably will not type this the way I would say it).

If you are getting complaints, I believe the guys are thinking they should be able to shoot also, and not just sit and look. and take notes, thus my statement of having a separate time for some to actually shoot.

I will also try to re-phrase my comment about your "warning".. Since you put that on your workshop site, and try to ask my question again. If you are showing posing, lighting and props, etc,, could that be accomplished as well with a girl in a bikini?

Whether my apology is accepted or not, that it up to you.

As I am making this reply, I am also reading some of the other replies (which is once again a dangerous thing for me.. looking and typing), and I noticed you said in a later post...Then, each photographer get's 60 seconds to plug into my lights and capture the image, so they have something to take home and study. They each get 60 seconds to shoot each setup.


So, without starting a fuss or anything, I am unclear... Your website says no cameras, but you say they can shoot.

............. (edited part)
I also should have said.... If they know fefore hand that no cameras, then no complaints should be made. They go into it knowing the policy.

So, it all came about because I read the part where you said you were having complaints, and I understood that to mean the participants were doing that AFTER they came.

[Jagdoc]

I have taken one of Dave Blecman's lighting workshops and found his approach the best compromise between no shooting and standing in line while a dozen other photographers shoot for ten minutes each.As he has said, he spends a lot of time explaining his concept and how to achieve it.

I would much rather have a minute or two to practice what the teacher says, than just writing it down. Time flows very smoothly this way.

I would very much like to attend one of Dean's WSs because I think he is probably a great teacher. It would be much more attractive to me if there was at least a chance to shoot a few frames to study with my notes at a later date. Model does not have to be nude to be a good teaching aid.

Vic