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An Interesting Take on TFP/TFCD
Old 12-18-2006, 12:31 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Re: An Interesting Take on TFP/TFCD
Old 12-18-2006, 12:50 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyd View Post
Thanks. This blog and some comments I've read recently on other sites has changed what I will do going forward. I was really tiring of all the issues with 'tfp' anyway and was looking for other options. So with perhaps one or two exceptions I will either pay the model or she will pay me. If I pay her then she can get usage of the images only by negotiating down her payment or money changes hands some other way. I suspect, but cannot predict, that some will negotiate down on their charge to be able to use the images. What this really does is free me of the stress of trying to process images as quick as I can and get the CD to the model ASAP. I used to try and get the 'tfp/cds' done as fast as I did my paying clients and that really does not make sense. Also with my moving to TN, I;ve found more models who want all the images not just the best ones that I would process. This rarely happened in TX but happens often here. So if I pay, then when I get 'my images' done is when I get them done, no questions.

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Just like photo workshops too...
Old 12-18-2006, 02:18 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Interesting concept, reminds me of the photography workshop models (workshop model circuit), also made possible more today because of the Internet. Many workshop hosts/promoters today, even sponsored ones, don't pay their models nada, some even expect the models to pay their own travel expenses--yet they charge big bucks, to probably these same TFP photogs the blog talks about, to attend and photograph these gals. Basically it's the same atmosphere, just everyone paid someone to get there and work for free .

It doesn't make sense, some of these promoters are making serious dollars upfront to pay their bills while models get stuck with TFP promises, some that never happen. I've seen workshop promoters who charge hundreds more with no real credentials, yet models show up, though usually over time they figure it out and move on, many disappointed and so-called "prints" never delivered. While I'll admit, I'm also slow for getting my post production out, at least my models get the opportunity to earn money, good money, in addition to being published.

I was asked the other day about the fact that I'm asking my models for eclusivity (for workshops only) for my workshops, the answer was simple--you darn right--I pay their expenses, hotel, travel, food, drinks, etc., and give them an opportunity to make from $500 to $1500 in two days! Even the chance to get images too! I'm not going to have my workshop models, modeling for other workshops, especially since 95% of the other hosts don't pay the models just provide promises that are often left unfilled. If a model is working for someone else's workshop in the same venue--it doesn't make good business sense. Not to mention, most of my models get published!

Yeah, all workshops provide great networking opportunities, but it's still cost someone money (models, time off work, etc.) and someone (promoter/host) still made money besides the airlines, gas station, hotel and restaurants.

Yep, the TFP is very rampant in the workshop business too, models get screwed in the end as promoters parlay the models' nieveness into their profits. The sad part, the attendees probably think the models are earning money. Now I'm not talking about "camera club" get-togethers, that's another story. I'm talking about workshop promoters who are sponsored (gaining a benefit there too) who should in turn take care of what eventually makes their workshops successful--the talent in front of the camera.

Dunno, but TFP was not something that I came from with 27-years of shooting, though we did "testing" with agency based models--but real testing was to help each other out, aspiring models and aspiring photographers--both usually broke and in the beginning of our careers.

Oh well, just ranting like the blog...thanks jimmy, and happy holidays, rg sends!

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Re: An Interesting Take on TFP/TFCD
Old 12-18-2006, 02:20 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyd View Post
IMHO TFP is ridiculous. Whichever party is less experienced, needs to pay the more experienced party, to get what they need, save time, and resources.

TFP ain't free. When you charge for yoru time, what do you charge? A model recently proudly told me she had over 300hrs of TFP experience, but she had three images that were barely acceptable to show for it. So she INVESTED 300hrs in NOT learning the right ways to pose, style and do her make up....

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A model's view on TFP
Old 12-18-2006, 05:37 PM   #5 (permalink)
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You guys have your opinion on TFP/TFCD....I have my own opinion. I started in the industry doing TFP...some of those images good, some not so good. I wouldn't be here today if photographers wouldn't have given me a chance. I didn't have the money to pay for images ...however, I did take time off work, brought all my own wardrobe, make up, paid daycare, etc. I certainly didn't have the resources to pay for images as well. I know you need to invest money to make money, which I felt I did invest what I could. Because these wonderful photographers took time with me, helping me get started with images, posing, expressions, knowledge on what to do and where to go...I gained a wealth of information, experience and knowledge and that has gotten me where I am today. I am by no means famous or working full time as a model, but I am getting enough jobs to make for a very nice second job especially for Iowa. So you can bash the TFP models and photographers all you want, but some of us find it very valuable. If you don't like it....don't do it. But many of us have benefited from it. It's not always about the images that come out of it. Its the experience, the networking, the contacts, and the incredible friendships that can lead to a journey of success.

OH...and if you want to hear some success stories about models attending tfp workshops, I'll be happy to share some with you. Tearsheets have come out of these workshops, paid work has evolved from contacts made, girls signing with agencies over images that came from these workshops, and one model even met a contact at our workshop that lead to her getting into a famous men's magazine :-)

My credits below.....AND I want to thank EACH and EVERY photographer that took time to work tfp with me when I got started. You know who you are and know how much I appreciated each and every shoot we had. I believe my experince working with each of you got me to where I am today.

Wood Harbor Exterior Doors - Print
JW Morton - Ad agency
Aegon-Billboard for CR Airport
Vernon Company - Kitchen Utensils
LimoLink - print brochure
Atira Gift card Ad
Commercial for Iowa Public Health and Safety
Winnebago video and ad
Better Homes and Gardens
Hyundai Ad
Teeze Magazine
Kenmore print advertisement
Wasserbaun Waterpark Resort print and web ad
Farm Credit Services print ad
Workbench magazine cover and tear sheets
Teeze magazine tear sheet
Pella Windows print advertisement
Teeze Magazine
Winnebago video ad and commercial
Cover of Better Homes and Gardens Craft book
Decorating Magazine -Better Homes and Gardens
Supershoots Spokesmodel
Arctic Flow Music Video

Cover of DSM Magazine
The Perfect Date-- Pawprint Productions/ Kevin Railsback/ Mary
Evening of the Living Dead --Progressive Indirect Productions/Bruce Heppner-Elgin/ Jen
VisionPoint Productions
Winnebago Productions
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Re: An Interesting Take on TFP/TFCD
Old 12-18-2006, 06:34 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I enjoy shooting TFP with anyone who asks, it gives me good practice skills. If I see a model I want to work with for a specific idea, I always offer something in return. Might be straight pay, or travel expenses or hiring a good MUA which I pay for.

I'm old enough to remember that when I was starting out, there were more experienced people who gave me a boost without thought of payback. I'm certainly not rich and I work hard for my paycheck, but I'm sure I'm better off financially than a young model. Everyone deserves some compensation for their time and efforts.

Nice post Kelly, good to hear from a model.

Vic
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Re: A model's view on TFP
Old 12-18-2006, 07:08 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Kelly,

Good post. I fully understand how TFP can help both the model and photographer, if each lives up their bargin. I by no means am against TFP, except in workshops.

Why? Because someone is making money off all the photographers that are doing the shooting of the models. The photographers paid to be there and the model deserves to get compensation in that environment besides TFP that the promoter has no control of. As a minimum, models at workshops should have an opportunity there to get paid, not in the future, but there, to make money. Sure, the promoter makes less but it's a team effort.

I'm not pointing at specific workshops, there are even some that have the same sponsors I do, but my models make money at the event for their hard work. Any two or three or more day event the models need more than just promises.

On the networking like when I met Holley, sure, that should always be there for everyone, those attending as well as those modeling and even the make-up artist.

There are few between success stories for models out of workshops, though I'm proud to get models published on a consistent basis. This year alone we've had a magazine cover (Rangefinder), a tearsheet in a U.K. magazine, two book covers, book tearsheets for additional books, Leica World News, Studio Photography, ABC Television, just to name a few. 2007 will be even better!

Even out of those great successes, not all models are so lucky. I stand by my beliefs models should be compensated (besides TFP) at workshop venues while TFP is appropriate for non-workshops when it helps two people and they mutually agree on decent terms for the benefit of both. Even I will do limited TFP, my problem is finding time.

Thanks, great to see you and wishing you a great Holiday Season! rg sends!
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Re: A model's view on TFP 
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Re: A model's view on TFP
Old 12-19-2006, 09:47 AM   #8 (permalink)
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As a workshop Promoter I have looked at and tried various ways of compensating models.

There is the "work for tips" method... if the photographers wanted signed releases they had to pay the model on top of the workshop fees ( kinda like strip clubs)

There is the get to work with mentors in exchange for working with the noobs method.... the models get to work with great photographers, usually after hours or in the best light, so that the noobs get to work with tired models and in the bad light, but still gets begging emails to provide images.

The way I like to do it, which I think is the fairest for both the model and the workshop participants, is the model gets a cheque for a pre agreed amount. The participants can provide images, or not, to the models.

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Re: An Interesting Take on TFP/TFCD
Old 12-19-2006, 10:04 AM   #9 (permalink)
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A relevant topic with a good discussion. Perhaps there could be some synthesis or summary that could be saved and made available to new models and photographers.

My conclusion is that situations vary and any method can work, provided everyone understands / agrees ahead of time on the arrangement.

Steve
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Re: An Interesting Take on TFP/TFCD
Old 12-19-2006, 12:03 PM   #10 (permalink)
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The point I was making in my blog was that while there are a great many models who want to break into modelling, they would be best served by finding a photographer and paying them, or shooting TFP with a pro that really knows what they are doing.

However, there are way too many GWC's out there that bully models into shooting TFP when they have neither the experience or the desire to help the model. They are just feeding their hobby.

We have all seen a new model post to a forum and cause a feeding frenzy of TFP offers from guys who dont seem to know a ISO from an F-stop.

Aspring models should be advised to stear clear of them.

Why is it that most of the TFP offers seem to come from the worst photographers?
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