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Copyright or wrong ?
Old 06-23-2006, 03:24 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Hi everyone!

As I am just getting started in studio photography i sometimes have difficulties explaining what "look" or "genre" i would want from a model.

Therefore I started collecting photo's from websites for me to learn from, the most interesting beeing the ones about the lighting setups.

Now for my question(s): can I (legally) show a model the photo's I collected here and elsewhere? If so, can I email the model a picture I collected here and say "that's what i'm going for" ?

As I am not a lawyer I'm not really sure
I DO understand commercial use is forbidden

TIA
Peter
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Re: Copyright or wrong ?
Old 06-23-2006, 04:59 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Copyright has to do with publishing the photos, not just showing them, so what you described shouldn't be a problem at all. But putting them on a web site would be publication and would be a violation.
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Re: Copyright or wrong ?
Old 06-23-2006, 07:36 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Copyright is the right to copy. Do you have the right to copy a music song and send it to a friend? No. That doesn't change when you change medium. Check the fair dealing (also known as fair use) provisions in your copyright act. You'll find they are actually quite restrictive. If you have to ask, chances are it's not allowed.

The following are allowed under the Copyright Act 1968 (Australia):
Fair dealing for purpose of research or study
Fair dealing for purpose of criticism or review
Fair dealing for purpose of reporting news

Each is also defined further in their respective sections in the Act.
Most countries are very similar to this. Anything not expressly allowed, is not.
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Re: Copyright or wrong ?
Old 06-23-2006, 08:49 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHDSP

... I sometimes have difficulties explaining what "look" or "genre" i would want from a model.
Therefore I started collecting photo's from websites for me to learn from, the most interesting beeing the ones about the lighting setups.

Now for my question(s): can I (legally) show a model the photo's I collected here and elsewhere? If so, can I email the model a picture I collected here and say "that's what i'm going for" ?
If you want to be 100% legal, in terms of the copyright law, what you can do is point the model (via a hyperlink) to the images on the web or in an online publication. The only problem with that is that since the web is not static, what's available today might not be available next week.

Collecting the images, such as you are doing, and then emailing a limited number of them to a model to illustrate a "look" might be able to be considered research and/or review and thus covered under the provisions of Fair Use (which is the law not only in the US and Australia, but all of the countries that are signatories to the Berne Convention - the international treaty that supposedly leveled the playing ground for everyone).

Of course, the practical side of this is that as long as that's the only use that you or the model are making of someone else's copyrighted material, then the chances the Copyright Police are going to come banging on your door are nil. If you start posting those images on your web site, though, that might get someone's attention.
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Re: Copyright or wrong ?
Old 06-24-2006, 01:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Her is place to check out and use the work as needed!
http://www.istockphoto.com/
O I have a small collection there as well!
May not be for all but there is all types of work posted there!
Still Don't post others work just your own!
LARRY
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Re: Copyright or wrong ?
Old 06-24-2006, 04:26 PM   #6 (permalink)
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we all collect some favorite images, eh?

and anyone can sue for anything, but the risk of a loss in the situation you describe appears to be small,

Lynn
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Re: Copyright or wrong ?
Old 06-24-2006, 07:16 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Too true. My wife always says: "What are your damages?" In this case... I don't think there are any... but it only takes some enterprising lawyer to find something (make something up) and you have to either settle, or drag it through the courts.
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Re: Copyright or wrong ?
Old 06-25-2006, 12:40 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHDSP
Hi everyone!
As I am just getting started in studio photography i sometimes have difficulties explaining what "look" or "genre" i would want from a model.
Therefore I started collecting photo's from websites for me to learn from, the most interesting beeing the ones about the lighting setups.
Now for my question(s): can I (legally) show a model the photo's I collected here and elsewhere? If so, can I email the model a picture I collected here and say "that's what i'm going for" ?
As I am not a lawyer I'm not really sure
I DO understand commercial use is forbidden
TIA
Peter
Commercial use IS forbidden. This means you cannot (re)publish the images. You cannot (re)sell them either.

As far as downloading them to your computer, we all do that. As far as showing a model one of those as example of what you want (or similar), we've all done that. No photographer or model is going to complain about it either. All that would do is alienate them. Also, I don't think too many judges are going to consider you showing someone's image as a huge loss to their income because:

1. The photographer isn't losing money from you doing so.
2. The model isn't losing money from you doing so as long as you've bought the image you're showing (if it is a commercial poster of a model or some other priced item)

I wouldn't worry too much about showing images to a model as guidance.. If it is a commercial image you're mimicking, just don't copy the image to a "T" with your model. In other words, change something up, whether it is lighting or slightly different positioning of the model or her appendages.

Sharon and I mimiced a rather famous Marilyn Monroe Playboy pose (posted below) and posted it on my Photo-A-Day site but I don't see Playboy knocking down my door, claiming copyright infringement. Of course, it is not 100% identical but the nuances are there.

The way I see it, if someone is mimicing my images with their model, that is the ultimate form of flattery and tribute to me and/or my model and wouldn't be something for which I'm apt to try and collect some form of remuneration.


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Re: Copyright or wrong ?
Old 06-25-2006, 08:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HMetal
Commercial use IS forbidden. This means you cannot (re)publish the images. You cannot (re)sell them either.
H-M,

While that's true as far as it goes, did you know that the copyright laws also provide for a "statutory penalty" where a copyright holder does not need to prove ANY damages? Merely (under the right circumstances) infringing upon a copyright can subject you to a $30,000 penalty... just because you did it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMetal
As far as downloading them to your computer, we all do that. As far as showing a model one of those as example of what you want (or similar), we've all done that. No photographer or model is going to complain about it either. All that would do is alienate them.
We've all driven 65 mph on a 60 mph highway, and probably gotten away with it. But, ask your local state trooper if, when he's had a bad day, there isn't someone out there that got tagged with a hefty fine for doing exactly that? Just because we do it and usually get away with it doesn't mean it's legal. What it means is that we can usually break the law, just a little bit, and usually get away with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMetal
Also, I don't think too many judges are going to consider you showing someone's image as a huge loss to their income because:

1. The photographer isn't losing money from you doing so.
2. The model isn't losing money from you doing so as long as you've bought the image you're showing (if it is a commercial poster of a model or some other priced item)
While commercial copyright infringement increases the jeapordy and the potential charges (notice that non-commercial copyright infringement is usually dealt with as a civil matter, but the copyright laws also provide for criminal charges for those who engage in commercial theft of copyrighted material) you don't necessarily have to be making a penny, or costing the copyright holder a thin dime, for it to be a problem. Witness the folks who were sued by the RIAA for copyright infringement for merely DOWNLOADING songs (not necessarily sharing them, and certainly not doing it in a commercial way).

Bottom line: unless the copyright holder gives you permission (which can be done in any number of ways - for example, are you familar with the Creative Commons?) to send someone else a copy of his work, you've technically violated his copyright., but the copyright police probably won't bust your door down for doing so. If the copyright holder found out about it, he'd be perfectly within his rights to demand that you stop violating his copyright.

I don't expect you to respect my copyright just because I put that little symbol on my image -- I expect you to respect my copyright because you expect me to respect YOUR creations.
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Re: Copyright or wrong ?
Old 06-25-2006, 09:22 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n5wd
H-M,
because we do it and usually get away with it doesn't mean it's legal. What it means is that we can usually break the law, just a little bit, and usually get away with it.
Show me just ONE person who has been successfully sued, prosecuted or fined in any shape or form for downloading an image from the web and showing it to a model (or their brother or sister, or aunt, etc., ad nauseum).

When you can show me that, I'll capitulate. Until then, no one is going to convince me that showing a model and image from either a browser cache (or otherwise) is damaging to anyone or apt to land us in trouble.

Can anyone say "Google Images" ? 'nuff sed.
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