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A question for the multitude...
Old 04-19-2006, 11:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Another post on this forum asks for "feedback" on an image. Three replies were posted last time I viewed the thread. All commented on the image, no one posted an image.

Question: What's the difference between:

a) a critique

b) comments

c) "feedback"

and when must you post an image to "play by the rules"?

It seems to me the distinction is a very thin one, and primarily based on how complimentary the words used are.

I have made no secret of my opinion that anybody should be able to critique, comment, or provide "feedback" without necessarily posting an image. It's also pretty obvious that lots of people feel that is unacceptable...

So please 'splain to me the difference between these three types of response.
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Re: A question for the multitude...
Old 04-19-2006, 11:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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One of the things I liked about the site when it was GG was the bylaw to include one of your images in your critique if you were going to give one. This doesn't seem to be as well respected these days. Posting one of your own has a "gentleman's agreement" quality to it that has always separated this site from so many other on-line forums that degenerate into flame wars.

As to your question: speaking only for myself I would differentiate a critique, a comment, and feedback by the amount of time I'd spend doing it. To me, a critique is a somewhat formal process where I take the time to break down an image into various components, evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of an image, and reach a conclusion as to whether the image is successful or not. Comments and feedback, on the other hand, are much less formal. They're responses to images placed in the main forum. A critique is a response to an image placed in the Photo Critique forum.

If you're going to critique someone's image, both strengths AND weaknesses, I think you should post something of your own. I think this is especially important if you're going to really dismantle someone.

If you just want to post a quick "atta boy!", "great shot", or "doesn't work for me", then I don't think including an image is necessary. The problem with quick comments like these is that they don't really help anyone learn. That's fine if the poster is just sharing work with the community. But if the poster is asking for honest feedback, an "atta boy!" is pretty much useless.

In the end, I guess a comment is something on which I'd spend 20 seconds thinking about and typing, a comment is something on which I'd spend a few minutes thinking about and typing, and a critique is something on which I'd spend 30 minutes to an hour thinking about and typing.




-Chip
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Re: A question for the multitude...
Old 04-20-2006, 02:35 PM   #3 (permalink)
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To me Feedback is I looked, I saw and basically I thought.. Comment would be a bit more specific, relating to technique etc. and Critique would go into detail(s) about something in the photo. The only time I would expect to see a photo included would be to point out a specific element of the critique, I feel to include a photo that does not point out something of the critique is "upstaging", although others feel one should always be included.. YMMV
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Re: A question for the multitude...
Old 04-20-2006, 02:45 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipBulgin




-Chip
chip-- i really like this image a lot although i think the contrast could be enhanced just a bit more and, more importantly to my eye, applying some blur to the seamless would help. those dimples in the seamless, especially in the upper left quadrant, are fairly prominent.

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Re: A question for the multitude...
Old 04-20-2006, 03:11 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Ban me beat me delete me.....because sometimes I just want to help and don't feel like searching through on what picture I want to post today after I posted 15 times already. Believe me you get criticized for that too....so what gives...??

First of all we need to stop being so THINNED freekin skinned and understand that most critiques are not out to hurt but only to help and give something to think about. For the life of me, it's just an opinion on a subjective art in the first place. Get real. Are we going to tell an editor at a magazine he doesn't know what he's talking about just because he's not a photographer. We all have eyes and if it comes down to some comment that proves he can do it better then ya, he better have an image to back it up.......but....I have let it be known before that I don't like the image posting rule because just because some of us may not know how to get there yet doesn't mean they can't understand it, meaning the image being commented on, NEEDS to get there.

When I can truly show, at that time, what I might be in reference too or truly hard nose critical, then I might decide to post an image with my comments and follow the dang rule. But if I am just making a general COMMENT in passing while giving positive feedback then many times I don't follow the rules because I don't feel like it.

I never have agreed to the rule but I do agree with having pictures in your profile. That's the rule that needs to be there. When you join and order to be active you must at least load 4 or so images.

Some other sites frown on you posting pictures like your trying to show off on top of your critique, or feedback or comments. Whatever, It's all the same.

Some people still have not figured out how to post pictures or even upload images to their profile. ........and here we want more participation???????

Venting because I think this argument is petty and it gets brought up time and time again and no, I am not saying we should break the rules just because one doesn't agree with them. Sometimes I just think it's petty, once again, to be so damn anal retentive about this rule and topic.

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Re: A question for the multitude...
Old 04-20-2006, 03:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
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This discussion is getting tiresome, and frankly should end until a decision is handed down from a moderator. But even when a rule exists, as it did on the old board, it's useless unless the rule is enforced; and it wasn't.

My two cents on what the standard SHOULD BE, is that you should post an image with your critique if you have an image of your own that would support your point of view. JD's post above is a PERFECT example. He says that you should blur the seamless, and shows an example. If JD had told the guy to blur the seamless, but then posted a shot of Kori in the desert...that wouldn't really mean much. Sure, he posted an image. Sure, it was a great image that showed his mastery of photography, and therefore his "right" to make a critique...but it didn't help strengthen his argument. The same would apply to a beginner. If the beginner has a valid critique, but doesn't have one of his own images to back-up the point....there's no reason for him to post some other random image. If you care what the critiquer's images look like in general, look at his GG portfolio. If he doesn't have one, that speaks volumes, too.

{/soapbox}
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Re: A question for the multitude...
Old 04-20-2006, 08:16 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Thanks Jimmy, I really appreciate a) you noticing, and b) taking the time to comment on it. The image is straight out of the scanner with no post work. In addition to some background work, I need to bring out the texture in the dress too. The print off the negative is quite lovely, but I can't share that here. These days I'd rather be in the darkroom than in front of the computer. I'll spend some time with it over the weekend and throw it back at you to see what you think.

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Re: A question for the multitude...
Old 04-20-2006, 08:50 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsmith
First of all we need to stop being so THINNED freekin skinned and understand that most critiques are not out to hurt but only to help and give something to think about.
The only addition I'll make to the above part of your post is that too often critiquers only mention the negative aspects of an image. I've seen very few images in my time that were so bad you couldn't find _anything_ positive to say about them. I've discovered that people react much less defensively to their work if you can mention something POSITIVE about it. Being constructive about what you feel they could improve rather than destructive about it also helps immensely.

Quote:
--snip-- I have let it be known before that I don't like the image posting rule because just because some of us may not know how to get there yet doesn't mean they can't understand it, meaning the image being commented on, NEEDS to get there.
Maybe it's just me, but I've never tempered someone's critique or comment by the quality of the image they post. I like seeing and reading people's thoughts on an image. I'd rather hear what someone has to say than have them remain silent because they don't have an image to post.

Quote:
I never have agreed to the rule but I do agree with having pictures in your profile. That's the rule that needs to be there. When you join and order to be active you must at least load 4 or so images.
This is a guideline/rule/whatever that I prefer as well. I will often follow a poster's link to their portfolio just to see what they've got there. If you do want to temper someone's comment by the quality of their work, viewing their portfolio is a better way to do so than from a single image.

Quote:
Some other sites frown on you posting pictures like your trying to show off on top of your critique, or feedback or comments. Whatever, It's all the same.
Again, maybe it's just me, but it's never occured to me that someone might be trying to show off here and top someone else's work. I don't get into all that high school-clique and posturing crap. I just like seeing other people's work. Their point of view is quite often different than mine and it's always good to see another perspective.

Quote:
Some people still have not figured out how to post pictures or even upload images to their profile. ........and here we want more participation???????
Don't get me started on this site's new user interface. Talk about a rant waiting to happen.

Quote:
Venting because I think this argument is petty and it gets brought up time and time again and no, I am not saying we should break the rules just because one doesn't agree with them. Sometimes I just think it's petty, once again, to be so damn anal retentive about this rule and topic.
I wasn't trying to stir anything up, especially start an argument or a revolution with armbands, torches, and what-not. It just seems to me that people are a little less chicken-$h1t when they post something of their own, and that's a good thing.

-Chip
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Time to end this thread...
Old 04-20-2006, 11:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Hey, a couple of guys actually tried to answer my largely rhetorical question of what
constitutes the difference between feedback, comments, and a critique. Thanks guys...

My interpretation of their responses is that it's a matter of time.
Time spent looking at the image, thinking, and typing... Interesting.

Since I hunt and peck and spend a lot of time rewriting, I guess all my posts
regarding other folk's images were critiques...

Seems odd that the commenter's specific experience, demonstrated talent, and established
reputation didn't enter the equation at all. So I assume anybody
can play at the comment/feedback/critque game.except now
ya gotta have four images in your portfolio...

Another notion appearing in the responses is that comments and feedback
are generally positive and complimentary... a critique may not be.


Since I only have two images posted I guess I'm out of the game. Did have about
60 at one time.. but that's history.

Well, Ya'll can go back to arguing about whether Canon or Nikon makes the best toys. That thread hasn't
been up in, oh, at least 20 minutes.
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Re: Time to end this thread...
Old 04-21-2006, 12:04 AM   #10 (permalink)
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LOL......

4 was just hypothetical as one would not be enough and two would just be a tease. 3 would be ok but then someone would argue that's not enough with the different styles of photography. What I was getting at is actually having a port which was brought up a couple days ago and I think it would be nice to force those who critique,comment,offer feedback to simply have a port on G1 that this silly rule of posting an image on each critique, comment, feedback could be eliminated.

I didn't answer your question because it's all the same and anyone can interpret whatever they want on the internet. So it left it wide open for everyone to give different guesses of new definitions.

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