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Beating a dead horse
Old 02-17-2006, 06:09 PM   #1 (permalink)
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I may be just beating a dead horse, but here goes anyway.....

I looked at a couple of model's portfolios and they list themselves as "paid assignments only". I'm considering changing my requirements to that myself as I couldn't possibly get any less shoots than I have right now.(referencing an earlier post of mine "2 real shoots in a year and a half")

Obviously models don't make a living off of photographers, and photog's don't make a living off models. No-one makes any real money unless a client purchases "our" work correct. So how can I promote myself to a client without a portfolio. Doesn't it make sense that if I promote myself as a photographer to a client, that I may also promote some of the people I've worked with as models to this client? Is "Networking" dead?

So for all the models out there that are not working and still except "paid assignments only" I will remember you when I have a client that is looking for a specific look.



Thanks again Mel...you I will remember.

Joe [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

(Joe now steps from his soapbox, returns to his Dr. prescribed dosages and hides in the corner to lurk some more [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img])
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Re: Beating a dead horse
Old 02-17-2006, 07:25 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Joe,

Those are beautiful pictures you did with Melissa by the way, every time I see those I really love them.

As for the rant, my semi-educated opinon is the same for photographers and models alike: post or advertise your stuff and your rules and prices, then the marketplace will decide.

Photography is one of the only businesses in the world where people buy their first camera on Tuesday and print business cards (JOHN DOE PHOTOGRAPHY - MODEL PORTFOLIOS A SPECIALTY) on Wednesday.

I think I might have waited till Thursday or Friday to print mine when I bought my first decent camera [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] but the truth was back then my busines card said 'photographer' and my pay stub said 'bartender'.

Same thing with models. All you gotta do is get some shots with your boyfriend's 'good digital camera' or a net cam or whatever, put them online somewhere and presto you are a model seeking 'paid adssignments only'.

Good for the women who do it, I say. Doesn't mean they're actually GETTING any paid assignments, just means they think enough of themselves to draw a line.

On the reality side of the equation, I know a couple of women who work their butts off learning and networking and what have you -Ginger Sharp would be example number one- and they have the ever expanding books, portfolios, and commercial credits to prove it.

End of the day they are getting paid to model because they are good enough, have worked hard enough, and have learned enough to actually get paid.

I know a BUNCH of really pretty girls who like to talk about being models but that's pretty much as far as it goes.

So let the men and women of this and all the other net boards post whatever prices they want for their work and then let the soulless forces of capitalism have their say...(rant voice rising) TO THE BARRICADES! POWER TO THE PEOPLE! ATTICA! ATTICA!

...oh, sorry...

Take care,

Shannon

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Re: Beating a dead horse
Old 02-17-2006, 08:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I hear you about Networking. Sometimes it almost feels like a total losing battle. How about a *CHHERS!* to Rolando for putting GG together and interacting with all the photographers and models. Now, if I could only get some $$ saved up for a membership! gar!
-joshua
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Neigh! Neigh! Whinny!
Old 02-17-2006, 10:00 PM   #4 (permalink)
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[ QUOTE ]

So how can I promote myself to a client without a portfolio.


[/ QUOTE ]

Duhh! Ever heard of investing in yourself? It may cost some money you know.
Spend the money! You spend it on everything else,,, why not the talent too?
You may have to get a part time job. Then you can have your book.

[ QUOTE ]

So for all the models out there that are not working and still except "paid assignments only" I will remember you when I have a client that is looking for a specific look.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you are already stuggling to make money in the business, what exactly are
you promising the model? That maybe you will think about her if some client
comes knocking,looking for some look that she may have? Maybe?



Rule number twenty -seven:
If you are willing to pay for the latest equipment and software,
then you should budget appropriateley for the talent.



Rule number twenty-nine:
If this is a hobby, treat it as a hobby.
If this is a business or profession, treat it as such.


[ QUOTE ]

Obviously models don't make a living off of photographers, and photog's don't make a living off models. No-one makes any real money unless a client purchases "our" work correct.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if it's obvious. It depends on your ability to create demand.
Some models and photographers do make a living off of each other w/o third
party intervention.



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Re: Beating a dead horse
Old 02-17-2006, 11:12 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I agree with you on Rolando's creation of this great networking forum. The knowledge I've gained from here is far more then any classes I've taken.

Seems there was more interaction between members a while ago. Some people have said it comes in waves.

Joe
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Re: Neigh! Neigh! Whinny!
Old 02-17-2006, 11:29 PM   #6 (permalink)
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[ QUOTE ]
Ever heard of investing in yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's where I've always had a problem. Placing a value on a photograph, either when setting up prices or in this case the seemingly nontangable investment in myself. ie: a photo session to provide me with a portfolio. I'm not saying that it is not important, I just have a hard time with the disposable income to provide this. Maybe I do need a part time job, "Would you like fries with that?" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
That maybe you will think about her if some client
comes knocking,l

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say I was waiting for the client to come knocking, I would just like to have something to show when I go knocking at the clients door.

[ QUOTE ]
Rule number twenty -seven:
If you are willing to pay for the latest equipment and software,
then you should budget appropriateley for the talent.


[/ QUOTE ]

The only way I have to budget appropriately is too whore myself out to family and friends to support my crack habit(picture makin'). [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Thanks Greg for knockin' me back to the corner I seem to belong in [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Joe

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Re: Beating a dead horse
Old 02-17-2006, 11:37 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I hear ya on the paystub thing. I dream of doing something where I don't have my name on my shirt and that doesn't leave a scar every day of work. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Thanks for your comments on Melissa's images, I hope to do more work like that.

Joe
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new reality
Old 02-18-2006, 12:23 AM   #8 (permalink)
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you are describing the world pre-internet model.

post-internet model all the old rules have changed.

models no longer look for paid work from paying gigs that are paid for by paying clients.

99% of the net models have never been published, nor ever will. They make money posing for GWC's (guys with camera) and the pics never will see the light of day except for posting on forums like this.

so the old business model of photogs shooting models and then the photogs got paying work and hired models is almost completely out the window on internet forums.

in the real world with agency models, it still exists, but for the most part you wont find agency models on the net.

there are some gorgeous net models who could park themselves at any major agency and find commercial or fashion work, but many like the independence of net modeling and don't want to be bothered with the rules and restraints of real world modeling.

the vast majority of net models would not find work in agencies, so they are only able to work for the GWC who would never be able to hire agency models.

Hope this was helpful. There is a whole stream of money changing hands that never existed even 7 years ago.
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Re: Neigh! Neigh! Whinny!
Old 02-18-2006, 12:45 AM   #9 (permalink)
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[ QUOTE ]

Thanks Greg for knockin' me back to the corner I seem to belong in.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, you only belong in the corner you put yourself in. I think you
can do it, it's just a matter of true belief in yourself, then the
drive, discipline, determination, to keep at it.

[ QUOTE ]

The only way I have to budget appropriately is too whore myself out to family and friends to support my crack habit(picture makin').


[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever seen the movie "Hustle and Flow?" The Ho' used her "skills: to
get the job done (And she thought she was a loser).

Hey, Hugh Hefner's mother gave him some of her savings to start his magazine.
Spielbergs parents bought their son a camera so he can make movies.

Now understand, supporting a crack habit versus a crack business is two
different things. (A The "habit" goes nowhere, and (Bthe "business" is to
hopefully acquire a "return on investment" (ROI).

You would have to have extreme talent and faith in yourself in order to involve
family and or friends.


[ QUOTE ]

That's where I've always had a problem. Placing a value on a photograph, either when setting up prices or in this case the seemingly nontangable investment in myself. ie: a photo session to provide me with a portfolio. I'm not saying that it is not important, I just have a hard time with the disposable income to provide this. Maybe I do need a part time job, "Would you like fries with that?"


[/ QUOTE ]

I find that even if it takes setting aside 5 dollars a week, it adds up.
Or maybe you have to eliminate cokes, or liquor, fast food-(you know, just
the junk stuff) in order to have that disposable income.

I would say, a ball park figure, why not invest $2000.00 in yourself?
A portfolio (16x20), some prints (maybe five 16x20's) and a model.

You probably would have room for styling and other things.

Greg.



[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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Re: Beating a dead horse
Old 02-18-2006, 07:41 AM   #10 (permalink)
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This is an old topic but always relevant in my opinion. I have a different slant. Not to go negative, but I tend to NOT use models that are "paid only". I think it stems from my year long frustration trying to find worthwhile models from a couple of years ago when getting back into the business. It's been a tough uphill battle getting back in the swing of things and finding talent to creat a book with impact. I've always remembered that models that understand how hard it is to "get over the hump" The hump being no work to show clients and models to get paid work, and no models willing to help develop a book of work. Catch 22 sort of thing I guess. On the other hand, I understand the models point of view too. They have to make a living OR have another life that only allows a little time to break into modeling. Not to mention the frustration they have all experienced at one time or another after posing for free and either not getting any images or no images that are remotely usable for thier book. I juess my opinion is that what comes around, goes around. You must sometimes give in order to recieve. You may translate that as the models need to give of thier time and hope that the photographer they helped with remember them with paid jobs one day, or you can take it as the photographer might actually have to pay a proffesional to get to a new level. I've always resented models that say "paid only" when they obviously haven't ever invested a dime in devolping a book, nor do they have a lick of real experience. It's a joke. But perhaps the coin could be turned on us. We are willing to spend God only knows how much on equipment, but our egos won't let us invest some of the money to get the shots we need to show to clients and see a return on our investment(s). Hm.... I think I've just contradicted myself. I must need more coffie.

-Craig
www.craighphoto.com

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