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Question for TFP models... when do you expect to get a CD?
Old 12-10-2005, 06:20 PM   #1 (permalink)
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I'm curious. I've heard some stories lately about models traveling and working with guys or at workshops and end up waiting months for a CD... even getting stiffed for it. Isn't this the 'photographer's end of the bargain. That's an unpaid debt in my book.

How often does this happen? To me it's outrageous! I wouldn't want to wait months after shooting a job for a payment. What part of TRADE do these guys not get anyway?

So I'm asking:

1) Have you ever shot TFP and never received your images?

2) Have you ever shot TFP and waited a very long time before getting your images? (How long is too long?)

3) Have you ever gotten way less (fewer or crappier images) than you expected from a shoot?

4) Have you ever done a TFP shoot, seen your image(s) posted, and still not received them yourself?

Feel free to to answer any or none of these questions... I'm just being curious.
I would say that I'm not trying to stir anything up... but if this actually happens a lot... it needs stirring.


Chip
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Re: Question for TFP models... when do you expect to get a CD?
Old 12-10-2005, 06:49 PM   #2 (permalink)
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One hears all sorts of horror stories about these sorts of things. Basically you always have to get full information about what was really agreed. The agreement should always be made before hand between model and photographer. It should be spelled out in writing in the release. Failing an agreement in writing one always wonders who is really telling the true story about what is promised. Also keep in mind that many workshops do not actually have a requirement for photos to be sent to the model. I think that a photographer should send out photos even if not required, but if not required, then there may be a limit to how many. Also workshops photos tend to often be of poorer quality and the photographer may not like many of the photos.

My theory on TFP is that you give the model a CD copy of all of the reasonable images (you get rid of the obvious bad shots, black frames, out of focus, shots of the ceiling [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], etc). These copies are low resolution (400 x 600, about 50-100k each). That's the base. That CD should be ready within no more than 1 week and even then its nice to post 5-12 shots within 24 hours. It is also possible (if agreed) that the images will just be posted to a known location that each side knows about (and possibliy password protected).

After that, based on the normal bargaining that goes on between photographer and model, you decide how many full resolution shots will be provided and when. I like to deliver any agreed upon full resolution shots within two weeks. Other points of negotiation include how many Photoshopped shots, etc.

I also think its important that both sides get accurate contact information and not totally depend on email (especially hotmail, yahoo email which sometimes doesn't' make it through the system). But I've had situations in the past where CD's I sent out by mail were returned as undeliverable because the model's address was incorrect.

I often see long attacks against models and photographers over this issue but rarely do I see all the facts being presented by either side.

Again, the safest thing as a model/photographer is to get an agreement in writing. That avoids a multitude of problems. Also for models, don't do TFP with photographers that either have no decent shots to show you or the shots you've seen from them are poor. They are the ones that will likely not send you any photos.

Cheers,
rfs
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Re: Question for TFP models... when do you expect to get a CD?
Old 12-10-2005, 06:58 PM   #3 (permalink)
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[ QUOTE ]
1) Have you ever shot TFP and never received your images? YES

2) Have you ever shot TFP and waited a very long time before getting your images? (How long is too long?) YES, over 3 months is to long.

3) Have you ever gotten way less (fewer or crappier images) than you expected from a shoot? YES

4) Have you ever done a TFP shoot, seen your image(s) posted, and still not received them yourself? YES

[/ QUOTE ]

I know life can get in the way of getting things done but a email explaining why would be better then nothing.

DeAnn
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Re: Question for TFP models... when do you expect to get a CD?
Old 12-10-2005, 07:20 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Hmmmmm, so I'm supposed leave OUT the ceiling shots... cool, good info, I'll do that next time.

I posted this because that's just a bit too casual. If someone takes the time to show-up, step in front of a lens, lose the inhibition, possibly lose the clothes and then trust the photographer with the disc... the photographer should feel strongly obligated come through with the images. With all the complaining I've seen about no-shows, it seems like a model that DOES show should get first-class treatment.

Your standards sound pretty straight up to me. I think it's fair to provide only so many with post production work, but all the good frames should be available to the model for selection. Seems worth the trade when you're digital... film and prints might be different but still, due dilligence is called for.

Thanks for the reply.

Chip
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Re: Question for TFP models... when do you expect to get a CD?
Old 12-10-2005, 08:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
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1) Have you ever shot TFP and never received your images? Yes

2) Have you ever shot TFP and waited a very long time before getting your images? (How long is too long?) Yes. I do have one photographer that I work with a lot, and he provides me with a complete set of images on CD once we are ready to make them available for all to see in on-line portfolios, etc.

3) Have you ever gotten way less (fewer or crappier images) than you expected from a shoot? Yes

4) Have you ever done a TFP shoot, seen your image(s) posted, and still not received them yourself? Yes

I do understand that I can't expect "overnight" quality images on a CD. I know it takes time to edit, crop, etc. I would rather wait a few weeks than have a whole CD of unedited pics.

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Whoa, wait just a second... you\'re mixing apples and watermelons!
Old 12-10-2005, 10:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Let's make the very definite distinction between a TFP shoot and a workshop where photographers pay a considerable fee.

In a TFP arrangement, yes, there is a trade situation. The photographer owes the models images to uphold his end of the deal.

In the paid workshop, there is usually no such deal. Yes, many photographers give the models images, but there is no "trade" agreement. The model's deal is with the workshop promoter, and whatever their payoff from the deal is, he's the guy to talk to.

Only if the promoter has specifically REQUIRED that the photographers provide images to the models, and the photographers have agreed, does anything approaching a "trade" situation exist.

I think you need to be more careful to not lump dissimilar situations together.

<center>


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Re: Whoa, wait just a second... you\'re mixing apples and watermelons!
Old 12-10-2005, 10:30 PM   #7 (permalink)
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OK, I understand that... never been to a workshop so please forgive my ignorance. I mentioned workshops because that was related to me in one of the stories. I'm pretty sure my actual list of questions either stated or clearly implied TFP and made no reference to workshops.

It makes sense that the deal is between the workshop promoter and the photographers. I know there are models who do workshops based on assumption that they will recieve portfolio images though. Unless the workshop promoters are paying the models to show up, how else are they supposed to be compensated?

The distinction isn't necessarily all that clear. Model compensation should be spelled out in advance of a workshop but apparently that's not always the case... unless I mis-understood one of the scenarios I heard about.

I'm not interested in pissing anybody off. I do think that a deal's a deal though and providing a CD is just as important as showing up for the shoot. It seems like a lot of shooters out there think the model's do it just for kicks... which is probably true in lots of cases, but the photographers should still do their end.

Chip
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A model\'s perspective...
Old 12-10-2005, 10:52 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Let's take a look at the workshop situation from the model's perspective.

Generally she's approached by a promoter who offers her something in return for being at the workshop. What that something is depends on who the promoter is.

But if you are a smart model are you going to accept images from totally unknown photographers that you might never even get as your compensation? I don't think so...

The workshops promote the models and instructors/mentors. Nobody mentions the paying attendees.

I've said enough. Let the workshop promoters defend their turf...
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Re: A model\'s perspective...??? aren\'t you a photographer?
Old 12-10-2005, 11:52 PM   #9 (permalink)
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[ QUOTE ]
I've said enough. Let the workshop promoters defend their turf...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's probably a good idea since neither of us is a model or workshop promoter.

Take a breath and re-read my post. I'm asking questions about models not getting a reasonably fair trade in a TFP arrangement. Let's let them speak if they want to.

I don't think workshops guys need to defend anything. I used the term 'workshops' once to be inclusive of a story that was related to me. That was probably a mistake since I don't know what kind of agreement she had with the promoter. If some models decide to call out workshops... THEN let somebody defend them. Nobody's attacked anybody that I can see.

The spirit I intended is, "If you're trading for CD, a trade is a trade and both sides have to keep up their end. If the model shows up and works in good faith, the least the photographer can do is provide her with images promptly."

Chip
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Re: Question for TFP models... when do you expect to get a CD?
Old 12-11-2005, 02:00 AM   #10 (permalink)
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As a fairly new beginner, and I say this because I've actually only shot a couple models outside a class type shoot.
It seems to me this would be a common sense thing. If you arrange with a model for TFP/CD then that's what you provide or lose your credibility.
Because we do have many sleeze type shooters, so many of new photographers have a hard time finding someone to model for us on this basis. More than once I heard the story of a model doing TFP only to find themselves without prints, copies or CD's yet see themselves posted somewhere. This leaves the honest but poor photographer without any models to shoot for both experience and self promotion sake.
JMO, for what ever it's worth. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]
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