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prolly the most straight forward question ive asked
Old 11-15-2005, 04:44 AM   #1 (permalink)
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where is the money in Glamour photography?
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Re: prolly the most straight forward question ive asked
Old 11-15-2005, 07:00 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Model Serena

Unfortunately, as you are finding out, there is NO money in Glamour. The money is in COMMERCIAL work. However, my theory is that there COULD be money in Glamour if the photographers just took the time to realize that his/her talent is worth SOMETHING and stopped shooting TFP's. Get this - everyone wants to make money doing what they love. So, if everyone (photographers, models, MUAs, etc) would just consider that each of us are worth something then perhaps we could ALL make some money doing what we love best. Models DESERVE to get paid. Photographers DESERVE to get paid. Everyone would be HAPPY (okay, that's a stretch, but can you see what I am saying?).

Models - if you want to shoot with a certain photographer then PAY HIM/HER. Don't expect a TFP ... and certainly don't expect a CD of the high-resolution images!

Photographers - if you want to shoot with a particular model then PAY HER/HIM.

Just my opinion ... I am SURE that everyone else has a thought or two on this subject.
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Re: prolly the most straight forward question ive asked
Old 11-15-2005, 07:26 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Workshops and seminars.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
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Re: prolly the most straight forward question ive asked
Old 11-15-2005, 07:38 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Scott nailed it. There is little money to be made in glamour photography -- if you only focus on models. Most models don't have money. The majority of glamour photographers who make money shoot other things (weddings, seniors, commercial, boudoir, etc) or they shoot glamour for someone who will pay (magazines, talent agencies, clubs, websites, etc). I make most of my money from commercial photography, website development, photo retouching and ecommerce marketing -- because I refuse to do weddings and I don't have the patience for senior pictures.

This is Jayme. I shot her TFCD because she runs a talent company and has supplied me with several paying models ... and because she's exceptional.

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Re: prolly the most straight forward question ive asked
Old 11-15-2005, 07:55 AM   #5 (permalink)
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seeing how Rolando is off playing in the sand. the answer to your question is as with any profeesion. the money is at the top. the thing you have to remember is that glamour photograohy is but 1 aspect of our craft. it is very hard unless you are on the top of the heap to shoot nothing but glamour and nothing else.
so you wanted to know about glamour photography in particular. so the top of glamour is being published (regularly) in major rags or covering major events. examples of successevid Mecey, Andy Pearlman, Rolando, and many many more experts who's names you will find here on GG.
And how do you get to the top? wel you work hard for free sometimes, network like crazy your work by constantly shooting and shooting and shooting (that is where a lot of the TFP or workshop/seminars come into play) and lastly a little luck on your side.

the other answer that rolando will tell you is that the money is in private glamour. meaning: private clients that hire you for your professional services to produce outstanding quality, while getting paid very well for your work as well as your discression. again, fire off am email to rolando (or wait until he gets back to catch up on the forum) and he can tell you exactly how he makes a killing doing this very thing. like he told us in back in may at the philly workshop, he didnt pay for his 7 figure, 5,000sqft house/mansion in san antonio doing workshops. he does the workshops(using his words) "to spread the gospel about photography".

i hope someone more intelligent than me can fill in some of the holes about the hows/wheres/whys to help you get to the "top" if that is your goal.
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Re: prolly the most straight forward question ive asked
Old 11-15-2005, 09:56 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm interested in this discussion. Could you expound on what you said?

"the other answer that rolando will tell you is that the money is in private glamour. meaning: private clients that hire you for your professional services to produce outstanding quality, while getting paid very well for your work as well as your discression."

I realize you are interpreting rolando but since he is a little busy and may not ever post in reply to this topic would you mind sharing a bit more about this concept?

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Re: prolly the most straight forward question ive asked
Old 11-15-2005, 10:41 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Alrighty Tim, here it goes.

You wanna know how to make money in Glamour Photography?

Well, if you want it to be commercial, then you have to rise to the top. How do you do that? Network, network, network. When you get done networking, network some more. Shoot with models who can help you get published. Get to know some good MUA's who work in the field. This is of course assuming you've already developed the skills to shoot glamour. And even then you've gotta pay your dues. It takes years of hard work before people really start to notice you.

You don't have time to pay your dues? Welcome to the club. When I opened my studio last year, I had a rather large business loan to worry about in addition to my house note, and oh yeah, I like to eat too! I couldn't pay my dues. I couldn't drop my entire life to move to a major market and work for someone for free just to learn the ropes. But, I still make money in glamour photography. It's not with models. It's not getting published. It's Mrs. Smith down the road who hires me so she can look and feel beautiful and have a blast for a day shooting sexy photos for her or her significant other. I don't publish on my retail website or any of my ads that I shoot glamour, but I still get calls for it. I hire a MUA for 1/2 day and make that client the center of attention. She has a blast and gets something tangible to remember her experience by for years to come. It's not as profitable for me as weddings and portrait sessions, but it is still a good money maker.

These women pay me for my skills and discretion. Words gets around. Mrs. Smith tells her friend Mrs. Jones that I shot some sexy photos of her. She shows her the pictures, but when she asks me about Mrs. Smith's session, I simply reply with, "Yeah, Mrs. Smith and I had some fun and created some really pretty pictures together." Under no circumstance (well, if the client is here and asks me to show a friend who is also here) will I ever show those photos to anyone. They trust what their friend says and since their friend trusts me, so do they.

Commercial glamour is a very competitive field. Private glamour isn't anywhere near that tough to break into. However, if you want to make a living as a photographer, you will probably need to shoot more than just private glamour. Very few of us can make a living soley in a niche.

Of course, these are all just my thoughts and what works for me. This is not the way it has to be, just my input.
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Re: prolly the most straight forward answer.
Old 11-15-2005, 11:12 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Dynamike hit the nail on the head,
Ditto 100%

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Re: prolly the most straight forward question ive asked
Old 11-15-2005, 11:23 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Scott,

Interesting you would chime in like that here on GG. It's true that there is money in commercial photography. For most of us however, there isn't that much in commercial glamour or even 'eye-candy' photography. There just isn't

I know about the movement in J'vill right now that you are part of. Some other photographers that I respect are also part of that movement with you. but Scott, I've told you and those other photographers before and I will carry it to my grave. If you wanna make a living shooting models you're not going to do it by charging the girls. For one, most of them don't have any money. What little they may have had they spent on Barbizon or Sessions thinking they would get something worthwhile only to realize they shoulda saved that money or bought lottery tickets instead.

Second there are enough talented photographers that like to shoot for fun that they are willing to shoot these models and charge them nothing. These guys don't need to make a living with photography and they could care less about 'taking business' from those of us that do. They like making pretty pictures. Hell Scott, some of them are willing to pay the girls and give them high res images! Why do you think there are so many girls on the net that have nothing to show for a port but still expect $100 to model a full body cast? Because somewhere someone's going to pay it. If you wanna shoot her, then you have to give her something worthwhile. If she wants to shoot with you bad enough that she's willing to shoot for a few web ready images and the chance to buy some prints, then that's what'll happen. Good luck finding them, especially in Jacksonville.

Answer this for me. Why is it that photographers feel like they can tell others how to run their business? You don't see Ford motors calling GM and saying, "Hey, you really shouldn't be running that employee discount thing. It's killing us! You're taking our business!" Nope. Ford comes back with their own employee pricing promotion instead. It's called business. For Ford to compete, they had to make some cuts. If they can't make those cuts to compete, they go out of business or start looking for other ways to keep themselves afloat. If you can't make money shooting models because other photographers are stealing your business by giving their talents away for free, maybe you should take a close look at your business model.

You want me to tell you how I handle shooting models? Here it goes. If a model calls or emails me asking me how much my portfolio sessions are, I tell 'em. If a model calls or emails me asking me if I shoot TFP, I tell them, "No, I don't shoot TFP." Then based on whether or not I think shooting that model would benefit me either by giving me something I can sell or by networking, I may say something like, "I shoot TFCD with some models, maybe we can work something out." If I think the model has nothing to offer me, I tell them how much I charge. When I shoot a model TFCD, he/she gets a CD of high res images. "Print all you like, I don't care. Just don't sell them or put them on a paysite w/out speaking to me first," I tell them.

I shoot for free to network. There are plenty of other pros around here that do the same thing. Some of the pros that handle it how I do are where you want to be. A good friend of mine, and mentor, was talking to a model at a commercial shoot I was assisting him on. She asked how much we would charge to shoot her for her book. I said $XXX (forget the exact number). My friend told her to hire the MUA and he'd shoot her. Guess who she called? Yup, him not me.

Ohmygawsh! See he's stealing work from all of us! No, he's networking. This model is actually one of the top prom and wedding dress models in the southeast. She ended up referring him probably $20k in commercial work. As a result of some of that work (and more networking), he's in Teen Prom and YM Teen.

So, he gave up $1000 to shoot her for free. Was it worth it? Guess not. He really should've stuck to his guns and made her pay him. I mean he's cheapening all of us right? Do you see how stupid that sounds?

You've been a friend to me in the past, Scott. I've admired you and looked up to you. But you're in left field on this one. Or maybe not. I guess since I shoot weddings and portraits, this whole glamour thing is really a hobby for me, huh?

Mike

Here's just another hobby shot I did for Stare.

Model: Rachel Acosts
Hair and Makeup: Jessic Rovira
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Re: prolly the most straight forward question ive asked
Old 11-15-2005, 11:32 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Hi Tim

That is why I shoot weddings, seniors and families. If you look at my port I don't have any "glamour" type of photo's. My clients don't want their photos published. If you look at my websit www.ageless-memories.com you can see my work in the other fields there. I am looking at starting to do private glamour, but I am still a ways from it.

In the meantime just like Mike said I like to eat, go to Hawaii etc that all take money. So I do weddings, etc.

All of what has been said is true. A lot of times it is being in the right place at the right. Network, network, network, join local organization, network, network.

Just my 2 cents.
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