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should a model be called out
Old 11-05-2005, 11:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Hey All,

Im curious about this question. I may be fueling fire...but I would like thoughts and opinions. For those of you on the other model place and for those of you not. I notice that models and photogs are quick to recommend models or photogs but photogs seem to shy away from not recommending a model they have had a bad experience with. I very rarely shoot tfp anymore, because I am just to busy with other things..not a boast....just fact. However, every once in a while a model will email me that wants me to shoot tfp and I see something I might like to add to my port..and 80% of the times they want to reschedule, flake, or just dont show up after I have agreed Several of them have done this more than once...to me anyways. I will also mention the 3-4 times they would do this was before I got my head out of my $^&*%%^* and gave them one shot if even that. Thoughts and opinions on making a public "not recommended".....no slander, no bad mouthing, no chastising. Just a simple statement. Thoughts and comments please.

Thanks,
Michael
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Re: should a model be called out
Old 11-06-2005, 12:10 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Hey man, with those cases, I think its more than acceptable to give a "not recommended". BUT, any negative comment, however CORRECT AND DESERVED, seems to just invoke a retaliation on their part. Then, you always have a possible problem, where they totally slander you in gossip...even though they're the ones at fault (lying...its just too easy!), and potential clients don't bring this to your attention, thus you haven't a way to "set the record straight". At best, a "he said, she said" occurs...which is bad.

Its crazy...someone walks up and stomps your foot...you calmly express your fustration verbally...and THEY GET ANGRY!! The insanity!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]lol, whew, I'll never figure that out...

-Adam
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Re: should a model be called out
Old 11-06-2005, 12:25 AM   #3 (permalink)
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My lawyer told me that it is not illegal to have an opinion. He also told me not to make conclusionary statements, or make my opinion on the same subject heard over and over..

Say,...I think a certain model is beached whale.......& said that model x is fat,....that wouldn't be such a good idea.. If I said that It is my belief that model x could benifit from a diet and a personal trainer,....that would be o.k. If

If Model x was suppose to show up at my studio because we made plans to meet at my studio, in advance of our meeting, and she suddenly decided to go "Mustang" on me,....I could say that Model x did not show up for our shoot which was booked in advance...if that was all factual, and can be backed up....rather than saying that model X stood me up and blew me off, because I really don't know the exact circumstances of why she pulled a no show,....regardless of ...........I just know......you know.. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] ........we all know... she just didn't feel it was important to her, and she blew you off...but we really can't say that when we name, or i.d. her.

I'm not a lawyer.. just a guy who has hired a few.. So,...I'd suggest going to a lawyer and seeing what they have to say..

JP
 
 
Re: should a model be called out
Old 11-06-2005, 12:37 AM   #4 (permalink)
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[ QUOTE ]
Hey man, with those cases, I think its more than acceptable to give a "not recommended". BUT, any negative comment, however CORRECT AND DESERVED, seems to just invoke a retaliation on their part. Then, you always have a possible problem, where they totally slander you in gossip...even though they're the ones at fault (lying...its just too easy!), and potential clients don't bring this to your attention, thus you haven't a way to "set the record straight". At best, a "he said, she said" occurs...which is bad.

Its crazy...someone walks up and stomps your foot...you calmly express your fustration verbally...and THEY GET ANGRY!! The insanity!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]lol, whew, I'll never figure that out...

-Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an outstanding point!

Regardless of how you construct your words to tell how much she pissed you off,...it probably isn't worth a fight.. (been there, been through that already)...this last deal where the model & model manager wanted high res files from me..(probably so he could print them off and put his name on them, and told "his" model that this is what she HAD to get from me)......I compromised with her,..and had her select three prints that I had printed by my lab into 9x12 prints......however,....just to make her a happy camper,...I included a fourth 9x12 print.. The last thing any photographer wants is a pretty model who is knocking on agency doors to say that a certain photographer was "unprofessional" with them in various ways.. LOL... I happen to know a certain Miami photographer who relocated from NYC after he destroyed his own reputation there because of his antics.. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] I guess I'll let that define his professionalism..

Best to smile to their face, while thinking to yourself what a $#@#$!! $^^$##%@@!!! ^*(&*^^%$#@@@!!!!!!!! they are!!!

JP
 
 
Re: should a model be called out
Old 11-06-2005, 12:44 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I am in 100% agreement with the comments made by John Paul. In a "fair" world a photographer would be able to let their fellow photographers know that a model blew them off without so much as a "how do" but as we know, this is not a fair world.

I had a huge issue with the "other model place" over a model (who was referred to me through them) and who stood me up on a shoot with no notice or anything after I had gone to a bit of an expense to set it all up and everything and boy was I PISSED over that. When I was finally able to get in contact with this person she acted as if it was no big deal at all.

I tried every way I could think of to leave negative feedback on that site and I even called the big cheese and I was told that only positive feedback (they don't even allow neutral feedback) was allowed on their site due to the potential liability consequences involved.

As John Paul said, it appears that all we can do is leave no feedback or a "not reccommended" type of response. This is exactly why I don't photograph novice models anymore, due to their prevailing lack of a strong work ethic.

Life sucks but what can we do??
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Re: should a model be called out
Old 11-06-2005, 12:59 AM   #6 (permalink)
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[ QUOTE ]
Best to smile to their face, while thinking to yourself what a $#@#$!! $^^$##%@@!!! ^*(&*^^%$#@@@!!!!!!!! they are!!!

JP

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to admit the truth of JP's words but I think he's said it best.

I had an instance with a GG (!) model whom I had shot with previously standing me up, no call no show. But I didn't dare use her name in my rant post. No way. not gonna open up that can.

Regardless of how true your comments might be, you won't win. The model always comes out on top squeaky clean.

The best thing to do? Tell your friends about her in PM's or on the phone. Once it gets out that the model is a flake, she'll still have guys who want to work with her. That's the nature of the beast.

When you get to the location and the model flakes on you, have a back up plan. Flowers, rocks, rivers, Trees, and walls are always available on short notice. Well in my neighborhood anyway. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
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No...
Old 11-06-2005, 01:04 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Bad mouthing a model just brings you down in other's eyes.

Yes, there is a lot of frustration and often anger created for the photographer by inconsiderate models. Letting it get the better of you is what separates the men from the boys.

It's part of life. You have to deal with it. If you can't, don't offer TFP or TFCD shoots.

But that's just my opinion.

<center>

[b]Zeke

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Re: should a model be called out
Old 11-06-2005, 07:12 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I see in these posts where the society of "political correctness" has taken it's toll on us. You almost can't be honest anymore about what you have to say about someone for fear of getting sued or other types of retaliation. The chance has always been there but to the degree of today its getting ridiculous, someone does you wrong and you cant say they did you wrong! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

We can reverse this trend just as it started, little bit by little bit, by not putting up with it just so much less, until the pendulum swings back to some sort of normalacy.

However, it might take a while

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e-Bay
Old 11-06-2005, 07:34 AM   #9 (permalink)
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e-Bay has set an internet standard in many ways. A friend of mine suggested that [censored] should adopt an e-Bay scoring system instead of their current favorites / ratings. If you work with someone you can rate them 1 - 10. It's your opinion. You can leave comments and that person can dispute them. Fine. I can promise you that if I see a model that has a lot of disputes, I'm still going to stay away before I join the crowd!

[censored] hasn't replied to that idea. However, if you all wrote them and pointed out how great this would be - maybe they'd get around to it?

Bob
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Re: should a model be called out
Old 11-06-2005, 07:36 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I've posted my frustration on this issue more than once on this forum. First of all, I've made the decision to leave One Drama after another Place on the wayside. My membership has lapsed and I've returned to the world of Bronze level low-life. In three years of shooting I've worked with two models off that site worth a damn, and scheduled four flakes. In fact, now that I think about it, ALL of my flake experiences have been models from that site. My experience leads me to tell you that flakes are nothing less than standard in this work. I've heard a flake story from nearly every photographer I've talked with, online and off and it's usually one of their "many" stories of flake frustration. Thicken your skin, because it will happen again. My take on "outing" an unreliable model mirrors many of the responses you've already received. Take the high road. Make a pact with yourself to NEVER approach her for work again. Excuses are like anuses. Everyone has one and they all stink. There is NO excuse, save accidents and medical emergencies, for failing to provide NOTICE that you're not going to make a shoot, any more than it would be for ANY professional appointment. OFFLINE or in private, share the flake experience with any other photographer you wish. THAT is professional courtesy. ONLINE, you should remember that one ranting post can follow you forever, and can cause numerous other problems, mostly for you. I, like most, feel your pain, but in my opinion, bite your tongue and move on.
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