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Terms & Conditions for \"Trade\" shoots...
Old 10-26-2005, 01:08 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Ok... I just thought that I'd consult with the GG forum BEFORE I attend yet another Supershootout with my friends, by Invite only.

Last time, if you recall (in the now locked down topic)...I stated that I & the other photographers pay to rent out this huge 4 story former tannery complex that is over 100 years old,...and we also chip in for food and beverages. No GWC's are welcome there,...and several photogs are always turned down..

Here's the deal,...in the past, I had the models sign a non commercial modeling release, which basically keeps them from messing with me like that one little [censored] who attempted to extort $1,000.00 from me after I posted a few pics of her on my two portfolio hosting sites,...without having her sign a release that she was suppose to,...and cashed her "modeling compensation check" for $175.00 anyway.....who is now with an Agency in Chicago,...and I could care less.

Well,....so they sign the non commercial release. I also provide them with a "Proofs CD" which contains every single image I took, downsized to 450 pixels max w/l and instruct them to pick usually about 10 images from that, depending on what all went into the shoot.

Then, I edit through them myself, and retouch the images in my $850.00 software, and e-mail, or send them a CD of images sized to 250kb, saved for the web,..which usually amounts to more than the selected number that they choose.

I did not give away high resolution images,...nor did I give away free hard copy Professional Kodak prints, of any size whatsoever that are printed by my professional lab in Milwaukee.

Well,..........I guess since much of the forum thought that my offering was a SCAM because I didn't disclose my print costs before hand,.....and even charged for those prints to begin with.....like how unprofessional of me eh? I am going to have to change a few things, I want to see what this FORUM thinks is "fair" for future events like this that I attend..

First off,...I will continue to pay for the rental of the facility.

I will not provide the model with a proofs CD of every image I took of them.

I will edit every single image I took of them, and saving them to 250K files for internet use.

I will give away the edited high resolution files at no cost to the model, giving them full rights to use it where ever, for what ever, and or to profit from that image without giving me anything in return.

They have the option to have me print as many hard copy prints as they want, regardless of size, from my professional lab at absolutely no cost to them.


Ok....before I do this,...I would like to get the opinion from the forum first,....who are the deciding ones who determin what is "fair" and what isn't fair..

Is this fair?

The reason why I ask,...is because this is essentially what I was ripped to shreds over, for not providing to the (Model) just recently.

I personally believe that what I was providing before was more than adequate.

I personally feel that who ever thinks that I must adhere to the above new terms & conditions is a pants crapping slobbering retard!




To be FFFFFFAAAAAIIIIIIRRRR we must give away the farm, along with the studebaker as well right..??!! Weeeeeeeelllllllll..........isn't this what so many people were saying??!!

Models shouldn't have to pay for ANYTHING whatsoever, no matter what, and if the photographer charges for anything, or doesn't give away everything for free, then he is a SCAM ARTIST LIKE ME!!!!!



JP
 
 
Re: Terms & Conditions for \"Trade\" shoots...
Old 10-26-2005, 01:25 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Ok JP.... Breathe

Here's what I find to be fair for a trade shoot. Just my personal opinion though.

A CD with images sized for web-use (no need for every shot... if my eyes are closed or I have a funky look, I don't need it, and you don't want a pic like that floating around out there either.)

If prints are necessary, for say.... a portfolio, I would say 1 or 2 is adequate no more than 3. If you are willing to provide 1 or 2 prints, then be sure to list your pricing for any additional prints on an attachment to the release, that way it's out front.

I personally don't think that a model needs high res images, unless she plans on making copies, which would be unauthorized anyhow. Some models like experimenting with photoshop and such. Some photographers are ok with that and some aren't, either way though I think it needs to be made clear upfront.


I guess the moral of my story is, be sure to get all the loose ends tied up before you shoot, and communicate, communicate, communicate... Then you'll be less likely to hear "I didn't know" or "you never said that"...get it all in writing.

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Oh yeah...
Old 10-26-2005, 01:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
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If you do delete some images from the CD, due to eye closures, funky expression, etc.. just write a short not stating that pictures with obvious flaws like eye closures, etc... have been deleted. Then there's not a chance that she'll come back and thinkthat you're holding out some photos on her.
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Re: Terms & Conditions for \"Trade\" shoots...
Old 10-26-2005, 02:02 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Are you paying the model for her time? and If so Why do you have to give her anything? Are you not already paying for her time? Just Questions I have because I dont normally hire models unless its for a project that I am being paid for.
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Re: Terms & Conditions for \"Trade\" shoots...
Old 10-26-2005, 02:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
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[ QUOTE ]
Are you paying the model for her time? and If so Why do you have to give her anything? Are you not already paying for her time? Just Questions I have because I dont normally hire models unless its for a project that I am being paid for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question,...

No,...other than the "compensation" they get for the release signing, which is "$1.00", that's all they are "paid". I do not pay an hourly fee, or rate.

They get pics they choose, and ones that I choose, in low res form that have been edited, that they can use for their own self promotion, not on a pay site,...that are large enough to be used for most comp card prints too.....in the debated case, the model got 16 edited / retouched images from me which was a "bonus".. but trulyu was the compensation.. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Re: Terms & Conditions for \"Trade\" shoots...
Old 10-26-2005, 02:27 PM   #6 (permalink)
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It seems like to me that you are just running all this into the ground. You keep posting the same "diatribe" here and on other threads and eventually people get tired of hearing the same old stuff (which is beginning to sound like "sour grapes" to me). But I think you were taken advantage of in this whole deal if that's any consolation. But at this point, its hard to judge with so many retellings of the story.

But as far as terms and conditions I always nail down the deal in the model's release. I always try to have the release in the hands of the model before the shoot so they can review it. I state what they get and what I get. So there is never a question of what the model will receive. I don't use a canned release. I modify the release each time to fit the occasion. Sometimes the model is more interested in photos than money, so I change it to meet that need.

If doing a tfp or tfcd I try to plan things so that any cost to the model for any extras is just my actual costs (so if she wanted a CD of photos, but later wants prints, I'll usually provide a small number at my cost). So the model gets a CD with proofs and an agreed number of higher resolution edited photos. I get full rights to use the photos for whatever purpose I want. That seems like a fair trade. However some models, especially those that are doing it full time would want more than this if I'm to get full rights. So we work out the agreement before hand. Most models are more interested in the restrictions on use of the photographs by the photographer than anything else. So I always make sure the model understands that they might be used for anything, and if there are things she doesn't want the images used for, we write that in the release. Sometimes the agreement may even be that the photos can only be used by each of us for our portfolios either printed or online.

The bottom line is that there are no surprises. Everything is in writing. The model knows what he/she will get in advance of the shoot in exchange for their time.

Cheers,
rfs
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Re: Terms & Conditions for \"Trade\" shoots...
Old 10-26-2005, 02:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
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JP

It's a fair question and deserves a fair answer.

With any trade / test / TFP anything goes and the value is in the eye of the person receiving it. The big thing is to set the expectation BEFORE the shoot. In your last post the model was all bent about paying for prints - but it was because she didn't realize that you were going to charge her. We can all run the model down for wanting, wanting, wanting - but heck, any of us would tend to take something given us if it were free.

I think your list of what you will and won't do is a good guide for YOU. When you invite a model, let him / her know what you intend to provide. If they need something else, then they can always ask. Make sure that someone sends an e-mail that documents what's agreed upon. That's the key.

Asking us if a particular package is "fair" is a waste of time. We're not the model and we're not going to act as a "TFP court" to determine if the "package" offered is fair or not.

Sounds like an interesting shoot....

Have fun
Bob

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Re: Terms & Conditions for \"Trade\" shoots...
Old 10-27-2005, 07:37 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I have to be honest and say that I have not always agreed with John Paul but I think he is right on the money with this post and some of his previous ones as far as where does a photographer stand and what are their obligations with regards to a TFP/TFCP shoot.

I have had models try to hijack my images and I have been burned by it once or twice but never again. Both times were at "open" type meet & greet shoots that are put on by a local stuudio. The first model got away with it because she camoflauged her tactics well and I didn't see it coming until too late but the second model got stopped cold and this person has been harrassing me ever since for 'her' photos and I have no intention of giving them up because I know for a fact she plans to use then for commercial purposes.

My releases are specific and tailored to the type of shoot and all specify that the images are for private and non-commercial use unless additional compensation is paid to the photographer (me) and my permission is obtained. Also, the stated, written intent of these open, meet & greet shots is to network and not ply your trade.

I am well aware that most of the people in our industry are good and decent professionals but there are some out there who will use every tactic in the book to get something for free and we as a profession and a community have to be vigilant to it and to stop it.

So here is an attaboy to John Paul and to every other hard working professional, ethical photographer and model out there and let's all keep up the good work.
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I hear ya brother...
Old 10-28-2005, 02:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I used to do shoot arounds all the time but the politics were no fun after awhile. Here is the rundown of what I provide for any shoots I do. I give them a disk of proofs (they actually have the word PROOF right on them cause I've seen to many of these show up on [censored] with my name attached to it). From the disk of proofs, I offer to provide them with as many as ten to fifteen web ready images for free, anymore, I charge.

I also charge for reprints but what I do is charge them $20 per image (plus tax and shipping) and they get along with the hard copy of the photo, a disk for them to make reprints, I feel this is fair since it doesn't cost me much to produce the prints and I've seen this has actually increased my sales over the past year.

I run this by EVERY model I work with beforehand on the phone and put it in my release after the shoot. It's a CYA society now, you have to do it.

So am I stupid or what??
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