Lens Diaries Go Now
Glamour, Beauty, Nude, Models, Photographers

*    |  Register  


 
Go Back   Garage Glamour™ > Garage Glamour™ Main Forums > Main Community Forum
 

Main Community Forum General Modeling & Photography Forum
Adult posts prohibited!>>Please Read Our GUIDELINES before posting!

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
This is why I can\'t stand \"Model Managers\" who dub as \"Photographers\"
Old 10-14-2005, 11:21 AM   #1 (permalink)
JohnPaul
Guest
 
Member GG#:
Posts: n/a
Comments:

IP: 66.94.220.80
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

A little Background:

A bunch of photographer friends of mine hold these "shootouts" every now and then... They are to be "trade type shoots".. not necessarly "TFP/TFCD" because each photographer has their own policy regarding what the models get...some give everything, low res, high res, raws..etc.. Some give maybe 2 low res shots only, and charge for making prints,...(one guy who puts up to 12 hours of editing into his pictures charges upwards of 70 bucks per 8x10)..

My policy on this is simply, "TFT"..Time For Time". I have all the models sign a FULL release. I do not and did not sign a "TFP agreement" of any kind whatsoever.

The place where we hold these shootouts is paid for by the photographers, as well as the food, and sometimes, the MUA is paid for by the photographers as well.

I provide a "Proofs CD" to every model who I shoot with that are sized to 450ppi max L, or W.....which have my mark on them...and tell the models that they can select up to a certain amount of pictures, depending on how many pictures, and sets were shot. I make low res. images for them to use for self promotional purposes that are edited, and saved for the web. I do not provide high resolution images because of business policy,....which went into effect after I had experienced several problems with the loss of control of the way and who were using my high res images. If a model wants to have a print, I sell 9x12's for $40.00 each. and 8x10's for $30.00 each.....and this is the way I have done these TFT shoots for some time. I have never told anyone differently.

I'm using my own equipment,..so I have to lug everything there, and set it all up myself,..(several photographers who attended used my fully set up sets with my permission too)..and my time, I am not charging for my time either.

Under the terms of my full release, I don't necessarly have to/am obligated to "give" anything up, which is to protect myself from "poor picture picking models"......I have had models pick the absolute worst shots,...thinking that they looked cool...and I just don't want those shots repersenting what I do as a professional photographer.

Yes,..I am a professional photographer. I make my living as a photographer. I don't hold any other job, part time or full time.

OK........

This model who attended, asked me to shoot with her.

I agreed, and I had her sign the full release, not an exchange agreement, at the end of the shoot, and I took a shot of her with her photo ID.

We worked together for about an hour, and at two different locations.

I sent her the proofs CD, and did edit Sixteen (fairly high) Low Res images for her to use on her various self promotional websites, on October 7th, just a few weeks after the shootout which took up 5225K of space in the attachment. (do the math)..

She sends me an e-mail, asking me to "give her the high resolution files".

I inform her that it is not my business policy to simply hand over high res files to anyone without charging them, and licensing them in an agreement as to how they are to be used. (I don't like open ends)..and tell her what I charge for prints since that's how she wanted to use them for.

I get a phone call from someone who hung up without leaving a message,...but the called ID recalled the number, which I looked up on google.com and found that the person who called has an 0MP account...hmmmmmmmm.........so I hit the "cached" tab, and found that this person if from FL, and has some pictures...(rather crappy IMO) of this model, and states that he is some sort of "freelance talent scout".............(oh brother)...............I then called him back, and left a message for (_________) (____) for him to rerturn my call.

I then send this model an e-mail that explaines in detail the reasoning why I do not simply give out high res images to models. ....and that she doesn't have to get her "manager" involved to "shake me down" for high res files.......and I won't give out any such high res files to a model like her who is managed by IMO a really bad photographer who dubs as her manager too!

I have had a magazine (MXB) contact Leslie K for high res images, asking her to submit them so they could run those shots of her, without asking who took them, or for permission to use them from me. I have delt with a local "model manager" guy take a high res CD from a model who I shot with, copied the images to his desk top, and removed my name, replaced my name with his name, and printed off pictures of my pictures, claiming that they were his, and showing them to models, including one who ratted his ass out to me.. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The CD containing high res images was to be used only for her agency's graphic artist to use to make her comp card with, so I provided uncropped tif files to her. She apparently didn't know that this GWC "manager" would use these pictures like that.

Well,....I take a call from this guy two days ago from this "freelance Talent Scout"..and he basically ells me that I am "over charging" for my 9x12's, because in Miami, according to him, all tha magor agencies use some lab that charges only 9 dollars and some cents for each 9x12 print. Well, I'm not a photo lab! I'm a professional photographer! (like seriously dude...name one professional photographer whop makes a living by giving away all his pictures for the cost of making them)......(which BTW is more than I pay my professional Lab....if I was charged 9 bucks and change for each 9x12 print, I would be charging more like 60 bucks a print!)

He claims to have connections with all these A-List" agencies, and in my opinion, infered a threat to "black list" me from them if I don't comply by giving up my high res files to this model,..and that he will be shooting her, and having his pictures represent her to all those agencies, not mine......(like sooooooo what?) (I haven't had the phone ring once because of "exposure"....and look,...I'm in Milwaukee, not Miami).. In addition to this, he began a lengthy "name dropping" bombing on me of who he all claims to know in the industry on a first name basis............but I wonder,.......why would A-List agencies be interested in a mid 20's model from several hundred miles away from Chicago,...let alone more than an thousand miles from Miami,...who is lacking a solid book, and a comp card who would compete for work with local talent? This draws several questions in my mind regarding this "Freelance Talent Scout"..



Well,...I don't want to be on bad terms with anyone,..and I suggested that I may be able to work things out with this model (even though I didn't have to)...to stay on good terms with her, and him. So, I left several voice mails with the model, and contacted her through e-mail, and on her portfolio hosting site, and asked her to call me back so we could talk things over. (I'm a talking sort of guy...I can't stand e-mail, because you don't hear the tone of someone's voice in a static letter)..

Well, this morning, I get this message from this "manager" of her's:



"John,

Hello.

I'll be brief and direct as it's very late. "

"This situation is beyond satisfactory. I spoke to (Model) after our conversation."

"I asked her specifically if any details as to the end product procurement (namely the issue of pictures i.e., high res files, prints, etc) was denoted to her prior to actually agreeing to shoot."

"She informed me that no mention of $40 per 9x12 was made. "

"I've been working with and for (Model) for over a year. I've never in my experience had cause to suspect nor find her communication to me to be lacking in veracity. "

"I have never questioned her awareness and honesty in any situation. "

"As such, when she tells me nothing of this nature was mentioned to her, I believe her."

"This then makes clear a faulty professionalism on the nature of the exchange of the photoshoot. "

"Here we arrive at the simple item: if she cannot receive high res scans of a few of the pictures, we find it of no use to continue discussing this."

"We simply won't use the images when showcasing her to agencies. "

"And along these lines, I find it necessary to suggest prudent judgement be used in any use of her images."

"We won't debate further the issue of paying for copies of the pictures so she can use in her book. If you're not agreeable to that, fine. In that light though, she then becomes someone who did a photoshoot and got absolutely NOTHING in exchange."

"And this is not as it should be. Working on further images and/or continuing to debate the issue is also not worth our time."

"You make mention of your concern and fear of your work and name being exploited by others beyond your control. "

"This is exactly now our concern --- and where it is (Model)'s concern it is also my concern. And I will keep it my concern in the way my ethics dictates me to protect my client."

"If there be any future intention to use her images in any medium, (Model) shall have access and the power to negate use of her images --"

"I've spent more time than should be on this issue. "

"You itemized YOUR experience with an individual years ago who took undue advantage and that this now stands as the reason you prevent others from getting copies of their own images on a disc."

"Well, now THIS experience has evolved to dictate an agreement between (Model) and myself that no further photoshoot will be established without my direct and active establishing of agreed upon conditions. "

"There are no further photoshoots for Deanna without me approving and imposing the specific parameters ---- Deanna has the last word, but I have the first. This won't happen to her again. "

(Freelance Talent Scout/ Manager / GWC).


........................If this wasn't crappy enough,.....I get another message,....rather than a phone call, this time from the (Model):

"John paul I dont mean to cause any harm and dont have the intention of trying to cause harm but i do feel i have a right to prints for my own promtional use. My manger is a good man and he is just looking out for me and my best interests. I am a good person. and if we cant come to the agreement of you letting me have axcess to hight res files to make promtional prints then i will say i feel bad that because of one bad experience you cant trust anyone anymore. Then i guess we would have nothing more to say and i will not use the iamges anymore. Your call."

Thank you,
(Model)


Why should I feel secure regarding the release of my high res images to this GWC / manager?

I've seen it happen before. I've been ripped off before.

Also, why should I be dictated as to how much I should charge for my work.

I believe the real issue here is that this model doesn't want to pay for these pictures, which will be used to market herself with, that she can write off from her taxes anyway....unless she isn't aware of that......which I highkly doubt,...which makes me wonder just how good of a job this "Manager" is doing with her,...especially since the guy claims to also be a photographer, yet doesn't stand up for the value of our works!

Any thoughts?

JP







 
 
John, John....
Old 10-14-2005, 12:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Member GG#: 35283
Posts: 47
Comments: 0

jstensberg is offline IP: 66.222.65.182
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

...everybody asked me why I don't particpate in "net" or "group" events.

Ergo, your story.

I and another photographer co-hosted one a couple of these and it became sooo much of a hassle I vowed never again - and I haven't. I don't thinkg 1/2 of the models ever got their proofs, much less prints. Then, like we were the police and could do something. Other than ban them from future events, no, we can't. We don't have enforcers to go break their knees (though, the thought did occur, I hear the philiagers need employement...).

But, simply John, you need to put - in writing - and have the model sigh EXACTLY what she gets for the shoot and the prices of anything she doesn't.

I would be hard for even the dumbest GWC to argue about that.

But, then you're dealing with a GWC.

I've yet to see an internet-based "photographer-manager" who didn't ruin a model's career, or for that matter, all 'his' models' careers.

You know 99% are more about their own little head than they are about the model's career.

Any model who would have one needs to take a serious look at what they are doing in the world of modeling.

Anyway, GET IT IN WRITING and learn a lesson.

Later,

Joel
  View Public Profile Send a private message to jstensberg Visit jstensberg's homepage! Find More Posts by jstensberg
 
Re: This is why I can\'t stand \"Model Managers\" who dub as \"Photographers\"
Old 10-14-2005, 01:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
Lifetime Photographer

 
Mark_A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Member GG#: 35470
Location: Atlanta / Roswell, GA USA
Posts: 325
Comments: 0

Mark_A is offline IP: 65.6.134.149
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

I had a similar situation doing a "free" shoot for a model with a local talent agency. I ended up giving them a couple of prints (no CD) with my logo on them and also stamped on the back of the print. I know this won't protect me fully but I also kept the originals on a disk with the exif data to prove I shot them and when. I was lucky and the agency used the images without any retouching on their part so it basically cost me a few bucks to be rid of the problem.

Since then I now send out a note to the model with all the terms and conditions, the way the shoot will work, a copy of the agreement, and I ask them to review the materials and respond with their agreement --- all prior to the shoot.

I don't know what to tell you in your situation and wish I could offer some great advice. But the fact is I would be asking the same questions of the forum as you. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] Sometimes these "free" shoots are way too costly...
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
  View Public Profile Send a private message to Mark_A Visit Mark_A's homepage! Find More Posts by Mark_A
 
Whoa
Old 10-14-2005, 01:46 PM   #4 (permalink)
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Member GG#: 36812
Location: Saginaw
Posts: 320
Comments: 0

j4m3z is offline IP: 24.231.185.48
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

If I read this right, she, whether herself or though her manager, is telling you that all the time you put into the shoot (which is more than she put in) and money (at least two orders of magnitude more than she's put into modeling I'm sure) is worth nothing, $0, to her.

While I do think models should recieve something useable out of every trade shoot, I don't think that necessarily includes access to all hi-res images.

I guess if I were in your shoes, I'd explain how what she's saying sounds to you (the $0 thing). In an effort to make ammends offer her a "special" on prints (buy one get the second half off?) and tell her that there's no way your hi-res images are going anywhere near her cretin, I mean manager (who will certianly kill any career she could hope to have). Finally if she thinks this is a bad experience, the lesson learned should be to read what she signs.

  View Public Profile Send a private message to j4m3z Visit j4m3z's homepage! Find More Posts by j4m3z
 
Re: This is why I can\'t stand \"Model Managers\" who dub as \"Photographers\"
Old 10-14-2005, 02:05 PM   #5 (permalink)
Free Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member GG#: 47089
Posts: 2
Comments: 0

STBM is offline IP: 205.188.117.8
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

i would tell model and manager to drop dead, but thats just me.
  View Public Profile Send a private message to STBM Visit STBM's homepage! Find More Posts by STBM
 
Re: This is why I can\'t stand \"Model Managers\" who dub as \"Photographers\"
Old 10-14-2005, 02:09 PM   #6 (permalink)
Pro Shooter

 
jimmyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Member GG#: 38375
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 4,078
Comments: 2

jimmyd is offline IP: 70.34.248.21
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

the first mistake the so-called manager made was that he should have spoken to you before the shoot and made whatever kind of deal or arrangement would be appropriate. my guess is his role as "manager" suddenly surfaced AFTER your shoot when things didn't go the way she wanted them to go.

all this after-the-fact stuff is the problem. i manage a few girls (don't hate me, okay?) and they don't do "trade" shoots unless i speak to the photographer first and we come to an agreement over things like content limitations and other stuff which ALWAYS precludes her signing a full, general release unless money is happening. as far as i'm concerned, if its a "trade" shoot then the images can only be used for promotional purposes. (by either party.)

i'm okay with spec "test" shoots unless i find out the "test" turned into hundreds images. in a case like that, i know damn well the "test" ain't a true "test" and the photographer was shooting content that he hopes to sell... especially when you're dealing with glamour shoots. that's another reason a full release ain't gonna happen if i'm involved.

i don't always deal for a CD of all the images, altho that's always nice, of course.

of course, when money changes hands, all that changes.
  View Public Profile Send a private message to jimmyd Visit jimmyd's homepage! Find More Posts by jimmyd
 
Re: This is why I can\'t stand \"Model Managers\" who dub as \"Photographers\"
Old 10-14-2005, 02:15 PM   #7 (permalink)
Pro Shooter

 
jimmyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Member GG#: 38375
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 4,078
Comments: 2

jimmyd is offline IP: 70.34.248.21
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

hey dude. welcome to the asylum. nice stuff in your port. would love to see more.

  View Public Profile Send a private message to jimmyd Visit jimmyd's homepage! Find More Posts by jimmyd
 
Ah, Jimmy................
Old 10-14-2005, 03:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
Lifetime Photographer

 
Fish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Member GG#: 35512
Location: Miami Beach
Posts: 177
Comments: 0

Fish is offline IP: 65.11.130.169
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

.........Robin is a "dudette"! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Fishie

<CENTER></CENTER>
  View Public Profile Send a private message to Fish Visit Fish's homepage! Find More Posts by Fish
 
Re: This is why I can\'t stand \"Model Managers\" who dub as \"Photographers\"
Old 10-14-2005, 03:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
Lifetime Photographer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Member GG#: 35195
Posts: 440
Comments: 0

rjwarren is offline IP: 65.88.151.31
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

Doesn't Florida require an "agent" to be licensed?
  View Public Profile Send a private message to rjwarren Visit rjwarren's homepage! Find More Posts by rjwarren
 
Re: This is why I can\'t stand \"Model Managers\" who dub as \"Photographers\"
Old 10-14-2005, 04:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Member GG#: 44936
Posts: 140
Comments: 0

rephoto1 is offline IP: 24.243.30.157
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

You dont mean that we are actually here to make money! They never told me that part in class!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

  View Public Profile Send a private message to rephoto1 Visit rephoto1's homepage! Find More Posts by rephoto1
 
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Photographers' Rights In Social Media, Specifically Google+ & Faceboo rolandogomez Main Community Forum 0 07-11-2011 02:38 AM
(Extract of) Interview with 'Vivid Girl' Lux Kassidy re: Photographers jimmyd Main Community Forum 0 06-13-2006 01:34 PM
are photographers being photographers? rephoto1 Main Community Forum 25 01-23-2006 06:02 PM
Tables Turned on the Photographers Brattitude Main Community Forum 25 10-26-2005 05:34 PM
The problem with escorts, "photographers", and "models". kentalan Main Community Forum 28 08-22-2005 03:23 PM

Sponsors


New To Site? Need Help? Photographer & Model Links
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:04 PM.

© 1999-2017 Garage Glamour™




Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93