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PhotosByDolph 09-08-2005 05:11 PM

I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
So here is my introduction to Garage Glamour:
First, I want to clarify that I am new to this forum as of three days ago. I had been personally invited months ago, however, just never really had time to get involved with the forum until now. It is good to see personal friends and outstanding shooters such as Rolando, dK, JT Smith, Ed Selby, Rick Hughes, Corey Marcello, and and several others that I am sure are here.

I shoot Glamour, Fetish, Hotrod, Swimsuit, Alt. Porn, Nature, Fashion, Travel and Landscape photography. However, none of it is shot by the rules of its traditional definition. Those of you who know me personally already know that and accept me for who I am.

OK enough of that:
This posting is in response to a post (only my second) that was promptly deleted two days ago on Garage Glamour. Some of the thread responses that I received before the post was deleted made me think. Let me first clarify that my models and I are NOT nazis or have any association with the Nazi party.

The photo in question titled "While the Colonol was away at the Eastern Front" is one in a series of 5 images that I will be displaying in a multi-artist military pin-up/nose art gallery show in Detroit in the begining of the new year. Keeping with the gallery's suggested WWII theme, the other four prints are American, British, Japanese, and Russian. The post also contained a humours outtake with me and one of the models. With due respect to the Administrator of this can choose to view the image in question Here

The styling for the shoot came from two images (see below) from fellow friend and and much admired Pin-up artist Andrew Bawidamann. His original paintings sell for up to $6k and he too will be partipicating in the gallery showing. (Wait till he hears about this)

For those of you who read that post and asked tech questions about the photograph, I will email you with specific answers. And those of you who think me and my models, and my wardrobe stylist are nazis...let me give you other examples of actors who also may be nazis and secret members of the SS for what they are wearing...

"Boys From Brazil"
Gregory Peck (Josef Mengele)
James Mason

"Night of the Generals"
Peter O'Toole
Omar Sharif
Charles Gray
Donald Pleasance

"The Young Lions"
Marlon Brando
Montgomery Clift

"Hogan's Heroes"
Howard Caine (Major Hockstetter)

And here is another bit of information:
Loni Riefenstahl (1902-2003) She was Hitler's hand picked filmmaker and one who produced all of the epic propaganda works. Because of her passion and groundbreaking asthetics in filmmaking, the Motion Picture Association recognised her work when the Academy offered up its annual memorial to those entertainment industry figures who died during the year. Although it received some protest, most of the attention that year was directed towards condemning artistic freedom by passionately faithful filmmakers like Mel Gibson for "The Passion of the Christ."

Perhaps the "stand alone" image may be too strong for some. But does it warrent a deletion without a discussion? I can handle it...I have a thick skin.

Rolando had once told me that this is a "cool" photographer and artist forum.

Did I come out too strong? Perhaps.
Did I hurt anyone's feelings? a couple
Will I keep shooting anything that comes into my head? Of course
Will I visit this forum often with new work to get critiques and comments? Doubtful...If I push the boundries and get deleted, what's the point?
Will I still be friends with everyone on here? You betcha...I just don't know yet if this forum "Is my Bag..Baby," the jury is still out.

jimmyd 09-08-2005 05:23 PM

Sorry about the sheep
There are people here who, IMO, seem to have a problem with the following:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or
of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
the Government for a redress of grievances."

personally, i not only don't have a problem with these words, i'll die defending them. you're ****t is cool, man. sorry the sheep seem to be chasing you away. but just remember-- they're only sheep and all they can really do is eat grass, ****t, and say, B-A-A-A-A

mhickey 09-08-2005 05:46 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
Okay, I am confused and I have been around this forum a long time. I like your image and it took a lot of creativity and styling to get there. What I will tell you is that I am surprised sometimes with what gets deleted and I am also surprised with what gets to stay sometime. With that said the forum relies upon their unpaid moderators to do the best they can and they have to respond if they get complaints and they too can see where an image may break one of the rules, but I admit I'm not sure which one you broke.

Hang with us man, we're a good group. And some of us can dance.;)


Doug_Lester 09-08-2005 06:02 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
Good entrance - welcome to he board!

rixafter6 09-08-2005 06:14 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
Personally I don't care what you do as long as you keep producing quality images and posting them here and don't try to recruit me into whatever you're into.

I went to your site and looked at all the images you had there and found none to be either politically or personally offensive. But then that's just me. Here at GG you can't throw a rock two feet without offending someone.

Keep up the good work and don't worry about being deleted.

Rick D.

jimmyd 09-08-2005 06:22 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
Here at GG you can't throw a rock two feet without offending someone.

[/ QUOTE ]

but that only matters if you care... i.e., care that you can't throw a rock 2' without offending anyone... which, personally and for the most part, i could care less about doing and i'm pretty sure you ain't too far from that attitude yourself! (except, again like me, when it comes to people you already have some caring for.)

rolandogomez 09-08-2005 06:27 PM

butt when I first met you...
I thought you were just a hick, ok, crazy man! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I had no problem with your images but others did and we do have a variety of admins for that purpose, which often gives diversity in decisions. Regardless, keep posting, keep your great work coming, hope to see you again soon, thanks, rg sends!

ginger_80 09-08-2005 06:46 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
Tim, shut up and post man! Who give's a F?????????? I still love ya! See you in Vegas!

Brattitude 09-08-2005 06:57 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
So far all of the images you have posted are incredible and inspiring to me. Anything you have posted to this point is far less offensive to me than all of the religious zealots we have running around here.


jimmyd 09-08-2005 07:09 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
JD's unrequested model rating for ginger_80: "Fine as frog's hair." You can add that to your resume if you like; it's not like i have a copyright on it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

p.s. Q. what's finer than frog's hair?

A. Nothin' I can think of.

Fantasiesimage 09-08-2005 07:11 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
p.s. Q. what's finer than frog's hair?

[/ QUOTE ]

not sure..but I know a frogs ass is water tight!!

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

jimmyd 09-08-2005 07:17 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
i'm afraid to ask how you actually know that. intimate frog knowledge?

Fantasiesimage 09-08-2005 07:19 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
p.s. Q. what's finer than frog's hair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Frogs FLOAT!!! let me check....nope no warts......nuttin intimate here!!!

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

JasonNJ 09-08-2005 07:21 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
One half of my family died back then. the hands of the OTHER half of my family.
A small fraction of that family that did the killing actually helped the other half escape
while another small fraction was dropping bombs and launching artilary at the half that helped the other half escape

.... You can imagine, family gatherings, quite the interesting and ultimately confusing experience. But with all of the bad and ugly aspects of history, I have heard a lot of stories and everything is never so black and white. People shouldn't look at something and automatically assume things like, I guess in this case "he must be a nazi"

From someone who I guess stereotypically should be upset by the aforementioned work, just wanted to say that I'm not. And do I think your a nazi? No, think your just into period history, and nothing wrong with that.

BhamPhoto 09-08-2005 07:59 PM

I unfortunately did not get to the posts. I guess cause I've seen your photography for a long time I knew your style but it still would not have bothered me.

Rolando and other admins... First I did not read the thread so I am not saying that it should not have been deleted. Certainly not because of Tim's image. That's my opinion. But I am curious to know if multiple admins need to agree that a thread should go or can one person make that decision. I understand advantages for both. Does the entire thread need to go or just the inflamatory replies. Again I'm just curious.

I hope this does not make anyone mad.... I'm just curious how it works.


JohnPaul 09-08-2005 08:00 PM

Welcome to GG! ;-)

Well, you sure know how to make an entrance! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Stick around, gets pretty interesting at times here.. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

BTW, nice work!


Fantasiesimage 09-08-2005 08:04 PM

Re: Censorship
Dang it I missed it too!!!! I hate missing good stuff!!!

frodofoto 09-08-2005 08:23 PM

I see nothing, I hear nothing, Col. Hogan
Heck, Stay around long enough so we can miss you when you go. If you leave now you'll be several rants behind our leaders (they self identify and self reveal, so just lurking will be enough.

I think you left out the cast of The Producers - but you can't please everybody.
From that other popular military action.

BGPhoto 09-08-2005 08:53 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
There are people here who, IMO, seem to have a problem with the following:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment..."

[/ QUOTE ]

JD, I'm as big a proponent of the BoR as you'll find, but note that this begins with "Congress shall..." Individual organizations are free to censor at will. For example, there are lots of photo sights out there that don't allow nude images. There's nothing wrong with that.

Dolph, I don't care what you shoot or choose to post here. But I'm sure it comes as no surprise that some people are offended at the glamorization of one of the sickest group of people to ever walk the face of the planet.

As a fellow Atlantan, welcome to the board! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

rixafter6 09-08-2005 08:54 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...

You're right about the attitude--although I've thrown a few rocks at people I care about too--just ask Don about my aim.

Rick D.

eselby 09-08-2005 09:07 PM

Offended and outraged
I can't even begin to express my opinion of Tim's images!

I mean -- c'mon folks - REALLY??!??? Did you see what I saw? Two attractive models in a well lit, well produced (costumes, set, make up), well photographed image???

Look, I feel partially responsible for Tim. A few summers ago I watched him wield a 35mm camera with models for the first time. Ever since then he has shown me - over and over and over and over again - how vision and creativity are as, even more, important as what camera we shoot with.

I am indeed offended and outraged - offended and outraged that in the same time span as Tim, I haven't even come CLOSE to the level of quality Tim exhibits time and again. The worst of it is -- and this part REALLY sux -- Tim and I are the same age, but he looks, acts, and hangs with people half his age!

yeah - sorry, Dolph -- you just don't fit in.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Welcome to GG, my friend - shake 'em up!

AprilJ 09-08-2005 09:43 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
"Sorry I had to have a fight in the middle of your Black Panther Party".....oh wrong subject... Anyway, dude you ROCK!!!! And I'm with Ginger, Who gives a F*@^#. That's about all I have to say about that.

Give me a call for real sometime. I think you have some images I might be interested in....


glennusdin 09-08-2005 09:58 PM

I\'m the dickhead who complained
I still think your work is wonderful. You are an extremely talented man. You remind me of David LaChapelle.

I have no problem saying I'm the one who posted a note that I think that anything involving nazi material is offensive.

And yes, I'm Jewish and proud of it. 6 million people died at the hands of those nazis and I don't find anything funny or artistic or interesting about them.

I am an ardent supporter of first amendment rights, and I didn't ask that your post get taken down.

Rather, I would like to think that you would be enlighted enough to realize how tragic the entire holocaust was for the world, and decide on your own that its a subject not to be touched or made light of.

Just because I support your constitutional rights to shoot anything you want, doesn't mean that you need to exercise those rights. To me, maturity is knowing when to hold 'em close to the vest and when to lay em out. Just because you have the right to drink booze doesn't mean you get loaded every night. The law says you can get drunk, your mature mind says its not a good idea. Please don't stand behind what others before you have said or done. Stick up for what you know is right, not what others have done. So what if others were assholes, just because they were published or famous doesn't make them right.

To the rest of you who are so wild over the images, shame on you.

The world allowed 6 million people to be killed because of attitudes like yours.

It's not Ok to condone killing of other people, and remember that the nazis also hated african americans, catholics, and just about anyone who wasn't white aryan. You probably would be on their list just because of your job/hobby of shooting glamour images. If you were in a concentration camp, you probably wouldn't be so enthusiastic about images portraying your captors in a funny situation.

Tim, you are an amazing talent. You just don't need to shoot everything just because the government says you can. I don't see too many people making light of Al Quedda or Hurricane Katrina survivors. To millions of people, your images are just as tasteless as these recent events.

Sorry for being such a ****. Its time for some of you to read, and re-read, your history books and realize how the world thought Hitler was a cool guy and turned the blind eye while millions died.

GG_Staff 09-08-2005 10:11 PM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
Tim I'm responding to you here although I have already sent you a couple of e-mails on the subject. This is really to just answer the simple question of "why".

Before I begin, at no point do I or assume you were in the Nazi party. I deleted the photo out of what I felt was a photo that was offensive STRICTLY because of the Nazi items. You don't have a reputation on the board and as you pointed out, this was only your 2nd post. We get people all the time posting all kinds of photos that shouldn't be posted. The photo is indeed a quality photo and if they would have had US uniforms, japanese uniforms or soviet uniforms I wouldn't have had a problem with it (naturally). Some (as I) don't look at the Nazi party as easy as others. Deleting the photo doesn't make that era go away in the least. However, many members on GG are Jewish and photos like that do raise emotions about a horrible time in history. A photo like that, ESPECIALLY out of context since your other photos in the series was not posted or a detailed explanation like you did this time was there all that I had to go by was a new guy looking to "stir the pot". Without the other photos to tell the story, I still would delete that photo if it was alone. I HAVE to look out for EVERYONE and not just a few. MANY times we have people complain via private messaging because they don't want to do it in public, as was the case here. There was only 1 response by the time I deleted it and that sole post was not in favor of the photo but did see it as a strong photo - the same as myself.

As I mentioned in e-mail, art isn't good unless it elicites emotion and feelings. That photo certainly did that.

What EVERYONE seems to forget is this is still business in the end. We try to make it as fair as possible to as many as possible. But in the end its still a business. When we go out to try and get sponsors, we need to make sure that they won't be offended by ANY of our contest as much as we can help it.

I hope that clarifies it a bit as to why I felt I had to delete the thread.

jimmyd 09-08-2005 10:32 PM

Re: I\'m the dickhead who complained
Its time for some of you to read, and re-read, your history books and realize how the world thought Hitler was a cool guy and turned the blind eye while millions died.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know what books you've read and, altho many blind eyes was turned, those eyes weren't turned blind to what was going on regarding Hitler's "final solution" because people thought hitler was a "cool guy" and, more specifically, because "the world" thought hitler was a "cool guy."

frankly, that's an ignorant statement that insults those (in addition to those 6 million jews plus about another 6 million russians and gypsies and others) who gave their lives or their limbs or whatever opposing and fighting against hitler's hordes and hitler's horrors. my father was at D-Day, he fought at The Bulge, and he personally was a member of an advanced force who were the FIRST to walk into one of the deathcamps. and i can assure you, by his very words, he and his fellow G.I.s did not have some "blind eye" syndrome and they had NO FCKING IDEA of the horrors they were about to see. In fact, as he told me, the medics--at first--had their hands full treating american G.I.s who were in shock and so repulsed and physically sickened by what they saw.

jimmyd 09-08-2005 10:43 PM

So... Do These Recent Images (of mine) Also Glorify Nazis?
I don't think so. But, after all, the costume is certainly Nazi SS inspired.

Art 09-08-2005 10:52 PM

It wouldn\'t be GG if there wasn\'t some drama.
I looked at your site. Keep going. Your images convey sarcasm, feeling, irony, humour, hate, love, lust, love, beauty, fear, etc... Your pictures are actually intelligent and expressive. What a concept! Imagine if photography only conveyed the same old titilating images of nude women spreading their legs. Boring.

I didn't see the image that was deleted, but I suspect there was an over-reaction again.


JeffN 09-08-2005 10:58 PM

Re: So... Do These Recent Images (of mine) Also Glorify Nazis?
What costume? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

As Wayne and Garth would say "Schwing Heil"

ChipBulgin 09-08-2005 11:23 PM

Re: So... Do These Recent Images (of mine) Also Glorify Nazis?
Jimmy, these seem inspired more by "The Wild Bunch" with Marlon Brando than by Nazi dress. When I see these images, I think motorcycles, not german military. 'Course she's just a wee bit cuter than Brando


hicspix 09-08-2005 11:36 PM

Re: So... Do These Recent Images (of mine) Also Glorify Nazis?
I'm thinking Chip meant "The Wild One" with Brando, as opposed to "The Wild Bunch" with Robert Ryan, Ernie Borgnine and William Holden. At any rate, I don't see any spurs going jingle-jangle-jingle so thinking he was going more for cycle leather than a western. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Personally I see it more as Deitrich in "The Blue Angel," but still far from any goose-stepping imagery.

Nice images, Jimmy.


j4m3z 09-09-2005 01:05 AM

This is the first time I've seen these images but they disturb me. I'll explain. The historical setting for these images is, for me, a touch ambiguous. I can't pinpiont all of the militaria but I know the potatoe masher grenade, and the use of fleck camo are circa WWII on the german side. Sex sells and it looks like you're selling the German army cira WWII, which were run by Nazis. My best friend in the world is Jewish. I feel a glorifcation of the WWII German forces attempts to debase him, and his family's worth as persons. This makes your art's statement either callous, ignorant, or evil. I'm not saying you should be censored, but I do find your work hard to stomach.

SnJPhotography 09-09-2005 03:07 AM

Re: I am NOT nor have I ever been associated with the NAZI party...
I for one enjoyed your photo. I didn't really spend much time dwelling on the details of the costumes, I don't believe any military uniform would have been acceptable to ALL viewers. But, I was really intrigued by the lighting and subtle contours you created. The lighting seemed to bend around edges with a feathering effect. I see the strong shadow from the light left of camera, and what looks like a shadow from a low light camera right (shadows behind loveseat). Any chance you would share the lighting setup?

Being fairly new here, I won't comment on the behavior of some of the individuals posting rants, I simply don't know them. But I wouldn't take them too serious, its been my experience you will always find someone that doesn't like something on this board. In July it was an image of a model wrapped in a US flag. I'm guessing it will be something else at Christmas.....

Cheers -


Driftwood 09-09-2005 04:03 AM

Lest we forget
Tim, I saw your picture before it was taken down. I think it is an outstanding image which I viewed as a fantasy and personally it did not offend me in any way. I think it is a pity that the image does not still stand at the top of this thread, but glad that it stirred emotions enough to raise the debate.

Defending the right to freedom of expression must extend also to defending the right of others to object.

In Germany in the 1930s a majority of the population stood by and watched as the atrocities developed. I will not judge them to be different from me, and I ask myself if I would have had the courage to do any different.

"First they came for the communists,
I did not speak out
because I was not a communist.

When they came for the social democrats,
I did not speak out
because I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists
I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews
I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew;

And when they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out."

(Martin Niemöller (1892-1984))

Thanks for posting the image Tim, but thanks also to those with the courage to stand up and object when they are offended. Not because of the picture, and not because of what happened 60 years ago, but because of what might happen again tomorrow if we forget.

mike7750 09-09-2005 05:29 AM

Re: Censorship
The forums are a large place to keep watch over. There are several owners/administrators and we all can make our own decision as to what should or should not be deleted. Sometimes we will talk about it before hand but most times we do not. The one thing we do is support each other even if we may disagee at times. (LOL>>>sometimes those disageements can get spicy off line).

I read many posts each day and on this one I did not see it before it was removed. Would I have been offended? Probally not. It all depends on the intent of the image. I felt it was a great image as far as composition, lighting and such. The uniforms didn't bother me because I wasn't looking at it in that frame of mind. I didn't feel Tim was presenting the image to promote the Nazi views at all. I also understand why it does offend others. Should the image been removed? Everyone has their own thoughts on that. I support Mark and also understand why he did as he did.

Michael H Dean
Owner/Administrator GG

glennusdin 09-09-2005 07:09 AM

That was my whole point. Those on here who so much didn't care or see the wrong from the images were the very ones who would be next on line to be taken away.

ARTISTS were very high on the list of forbidden people.

FotoTejas 09-09-2005 08:04 AM

I've seen images on this site taken in antebellum Southern mansions with models wearing antebellum period clothing (I don't recall whether CSA uniforms or insignia were included).

Certainly pictures including items from the period during which their ancestors were held in chattel slavery would offend Black members of the site. Were those pictures deleted? Of course not. And these should not have been deleted either.

They were excellent images of beautiful models. Isn't that what this site is supposed to be "about"?

FotoTejas 09-09-2005 08:19 AM

Ignorance is Bliss
Your "Colonel" image was one of the best and most unique images posted on this site during the year that I've been lurking and sometimes posting images and comments. BRAVO!

In short, the images do not offend me. Ignorance does offend me, and most of the negative comments ooze ignorance in copious quantities.

For instance, only one of the uniforms is even "Nazi" -- the quasi-SS uniform worn by the model on the left. The model on the right appears to be wearing a quasi-Wehrmacht uniform, and that branch of the German military was well known for having little use for the Nazi party. Hitler didn't trust them much and used his SS troops as a spearhead in many instances, for exactly that reason. You'll recall that Hitler killed his best Wehrmacht general (Rommel) for exactly that reason. (Well, that and the fact that Rommel tried to assassinate him.)

Maybe the image represents the efforts of the SS to subdue the Wehrmacht. OK, that is a bit of a stretch. Great image anyway.

RickHughes 09-09-2005 08:35 AM

While principle is nice, reality trumps all.
Tim, ya know I respect your photographic talent. That is not in question at all.

I guess what needs to be realized is that there are the realities of commerce at work here. RG has sponsors and potential sponsors to consider. Free speech is not at issue here. If someone wants to scream "I am a Nazi. You should be a Nazi too" in Acmemart I think it would be ok for Acmemart to say "Hey. This is not good for our business. Get out!" It is their place! I think that would be ok for Acmemart to say even if the owners were Nazi's themselves. It is just economic reality.

Now, no one here is really claiming to be a Nazi or that you are a Nazi, Tim. This is not about censorship at all. It is about business. Every time someone does something like pull an image like this people cry censorship. That is the popular thing to do. It is so easy to climb on a soapbox and proclaim principle, but the realities of life are often far more simple than principle. RG is for free speech I am sure. He is also running a business. Displaying the images in a gallery is one thing. It is fine here too IF RG SAYS IT IS OK. It's HIS place. This is not about the constitution. It is about the realities of commerce.

I don't like the subject matter of the image, but I am not going to lose sleep over it. I am not Jewish. I don't have the same sensitivities to this that Jewish people have, nor can I be expected to, even though I find what happened many years ago to be horrific. I do understand Rolando making a decision that was probably the smart move for his business. There plenty of avenues to display that particular image Tim. RG did not welcome it here for some fundamentally sound REALISTIC reasons. All of your work does not fit into that gallery showing yet you don't pull out of the gallery. Try and be a little more understanding of this, and every other venue as well.


GG_Staff 09-09-2005 08:36 AM

Re: Ridiculous
That isn't the same type of comparison to me. I would compare more to if they were wearing Ku-Klux-Klan silk robes with hoods laying on floor. Would you find that offensive?

FotoTejas 09-09-2005 08:42 AM

Re: Ridiculous
Klansmen intimidated and occasionally killed the ancestors of two or three generations of American Blacks. Planters enslaved, beat and raped a dozen generations of those same ancestors.

No, I don't see much of a distinction.

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