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Future Compensation & Release Forms
Old 08-23-2005, 02:10 PM   #1 (permalink)
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I have reached an agreement with a model for a future compensation arrangement where she will get a percentage of any $ I get from the sale of pictures for the next 2 years.... What would be a suggested legal wording for this in a release form?

Thanks,

Bryan

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Here\'s the ideal wording...
Old 08-23-2005, 04:13 PM   #2 (permalink)
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"This model release for future compensation is made between Photographer and Model, in order to guarantee bad feelings, confusion, financial disagreement, and possibly litigation..."

=========

Seriously, entanglements like you propose (or have already done) are a waste of time and lead to bad feelings. INcidentally, do you propose to do this with numerous girls --- and track sales and profits and spend the rest of your days as a scrivener? Best arrangement is payment, a release, and keep things simple. BTW, if you continue with the arrangement you propose, please share with other GG members, the future good vibes, bad vibes, or lawsuit.
 
 
Re: Here\'s the ideal wording...
Old 08-23-2005, 06:53 PM   #3 (permalink)
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if you put it that way... maybe I should think this over. I have not signed anything.

Thanks

Bryan
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Re: Future Compensation & Release Forms
Old 08-23-2005, 07:25 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Bryan

This is the point where you find a good lawyer and pay them to do this. NO ONE on this board (maybe St Marc or Gunftr - they are lawyers) should try and tell you how to do this. And those guys have to charge - it's the ethics of the business.

See if you can't figure out what the model's compensation for this shoot could be and pay her up front. Or find someone else. Just make sure that you compensate them and get a release that acknowledges the compensation and is specific to the purpose of the images.

Best of luck

Bob
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Re: Future Compensation & Release Forms
Old 08-23-2005, 08:25 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Bob...

you win... I am convinced.. thanks for making me see the light...

That is why I asked here BEFORE signing or even making a verbal agreement.

Thanks again...

Bryan
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It could be done but......
Old 08-23-2005, 09:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
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You could easily write such an agreement, just take a standard model release, and put your intentions in plain English (model to receive ##% if all future sales.....). I did something like this when I got started and couldn't afford to pay my stock models, and didn't realize the can of worms I was exposing myself to (that fortunately stayed closed). What you have to do though, is be clear and define what kinds of sales count, and what don't count (all commercial sales? what about magazines where the model might not normally get paid but you do? What about sales if you sell prints in a gallery? what if you decide to give away something, for which you would normally get paid, does she get what you should have charged from you?), and also are you giving her a percentage of the gross (whatever the amount of the check is, or the net (are you deducting a percentage for your overhead first? Does the deal kick in before or after you recoup your expenses? Is she entitled to audit your books (as with most standard royalty agreements)? Does she have any control over whether to authorize the sale, or are you in control, and just having to pay her a royalty after the fact (never give the model veto power over the sale if you can avoid it, otherwise its what we call a "spec" shoot, not a "stock" shoot).

OK, now if all that isn't enough to boggle your mind, think about this: Who's responsibility is it to be sure they're in touch with the other, in case you lose contact and one of your moves away? How often are you supposed to pay her - upon receipt of payment from your client? Quarterly? What if the client doesn't pay and you have to sue. Will she wait for payment? Will she share in the proceeds of the lawsuit? What happens after two years - are you released from having to pay her anything, or is the model release canceled? When you say 2 years, does that include only deals you make within two years - what about deals you might make just before the two years, but get paid after?

OK, it sounds like a lot of details, but you should see some of the royalty agreements I get into these days as a photographer, and that's why I usually don't like them. If you find a simpler way to do it, great, but there's still one more I hurdle think you'll find. When you get out into the real world and start licensing images (we don't "sell" them, remember?) you may find that the fees are not as substantial in some cases as you think they might be, and the model's percentage (which I've seen run anywhere from 10-50%, depending on your overhead and production costs) will return a fee to her, that is substantially less than SHE thinks it should be. HER expectations of what is a reasonable fee amount, is often not realistic, and the problem arises when she discovers her 25% (for example) won't even pay her cell phone bill. This is where the friction can start. In my personal stock business, I do pay the models at the time of the shoot for a complete release, but I also will come back later and surprise some of them with a bonus if I make an especially large sale, or get a poster deal or something.

Now one more thing which will sound s little odd after all that. In a perfect world, they models SHOULD get a percentage of your sales. With computers and such, tracking and disbursing royalties is actually easy (although not worth setting up for the occaisional sale). The problem is, if you had to give away a percentage of all your sales for any reason, you'd be out of business. Many of the fees for stock use of pinup/glamour images are not that great, and giving away a slice off the top forever, would be a business killer, which is why I don't do it.

Regards,
Andy Pearlman
Andy Pearlman Studio

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Re: Here\'s the ideal wording...
Old 08-23-2005, 11:12 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Bryan,

I can see why you might be doing this in this manner. For those that are used to "licensing" stock images and have a following all is fine to pay a model upfront. I have often thought about the same issue in images I have taken. My release states that I may license, publish, submitt, etc etc any and all images without models prior concent. I have a paragraphy in my release that is specific to this and not only do they sign the release but I have a spot at the end of that paragraph for them to initial. The usual blurb at the end of the paragraph " this has been explained to me and I fully understand" etc etc is also added in. I do this in TFP sessions, and sessions if I were to ever pay a model. I have realized that (no offense to anyone) that if I am going to shoot tfp...which I very rarely do anymore, I need to be able to potentially recoupe my costs in terms of wear/tear on my gear, my editing time, etc etc. My question is: (specific to Andy P) how do you limit your potential of NOT selling images if you pay a model to shoot specifically for stock. While there is no fool proof method and there is a good chance of "sunk costs" how do you minimize that risk.
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Re: Future Compensation & Release Forms
Old 08-23-2005, 11:14 PM   #8 (permalink)
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oopsss...should have been posted here.....

Bryan,

I can see why you might be doing this in this manner. For those that are used to "licensing" stock images and have a following all is fine to pay a model upfront. I have often thought about the same issue in images I have taken. My release states that I may license, publish, submitt, etc etc any and all images without models prior concent. I have a paragraphy in my release that is specific to this and not only do they sign the release but I have a spot at the end of that paragraph for them to initial. The usual blurb at the end of the paragraph " this has been explained to me and I fully understand" etc etc is also added in. I do this in TFP sessions, and sessions if I were to ever pay a model. I have realized that (no offense to anyone) that if I am going to shoot tfp...which I very rarely do anymore, I need to be able to potentially recoupe my costs in terms of wear/tear on my gear, my editing time, etc etc. My question is: (specific to Andy P) how do you limit your potential of NOT selling images if you pay a model to shoot specifically for stock. While there is no fool proof method and there is a good chance of "sunk costs" how do you minimize that risk.
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Thank you.
Old 08-24-2005, 09:38 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Bob is correct: you are essentially asking for legal advice, and pretty specific legal advice, to boot.

You need a lawyer to do this. Anyone else who advises you in anything more than the most general terms (Andy's answer is, so far as I can tell, within reason - he's more advising you about what a pain it is than how to actually do it) is doing you a disservice and themselves a bigger one: we get REAL touchy about people without law licenses giving legal advice. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It upsets us more when they charge then when they don't, but we don't like either. Practicing law without a license is a fairly serious no-no in most jurisdictions. (Since lawyers write the laws we do tend to stand up for our own side once in a while.)

M
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good point....
Old 08-24-2005, 07:02 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Andy makes a serious, honest and very logical point here.

i have never been able to sell any of my images. i shoot only TFP as i cant even afford to pay meself, let alone a model.

for this reason, i allow models to sell any images we create without commissions to me, and of course, the same rights to market pixs without commission to her also. of course she would have better (if any) luck in selling than i ever would... my images just dont sell.

thanks for your insight on a valid and interesting subject.
 
 
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