Predicament.

[stevenD]

If you had a signed release and paid her for the shoot, then why even bother asking her about it, two years later?

If you had some other type of arangement and need her consent before selling them, then you're screwed...

[gregkdavis]

First of all, what publication is it you are talking about?
Apparently you had some misgivings yourself about the publication
or you wouldn't have asked.

Secondly, since you did ask her feelings on the matter, it's really
about ethics-- which seems to be lost.

Ethically, since you asked, you should repect her wishes. You've been
without this money for two years and according to you, it's not going
to make a lifestyle difference anyway. So why sell?

If you had just processed the sale without making any inquiries it would not
really be a "predicament" about the decision, but you opened the door
(she answered) so keep moving on and don't look back.

Greg.

[fotoguy]

Mark thanks for your reply, many of the same sentiments that crossed my mind when I heard from the model. I wanted to just ask as to what others would do in this situation if it arose for them.

I know Andy Pearlman is on a friends basis with alot of the models he has worked with over the years and I to have that same relationship with alot of the models I deal with. So this becomes a whole different can of worms so to speak.

Just a fyi for you, I have never come on here or anywhere and said how "professional" I am, cause I have never thought or said that I am. If being a ****=professionalism I highly doubt I'll reach that level of photography or business.

[gregkdavis]

What that clown photographer did was attempt blackmail, plain and simple.
The jury saw the person for the scum he was and voted guilty.

What he also did was drag down the profession another notch.

It doesn't matter if a model signed a release or not.

I have releases on tons of people, some are celebrities, but I would not
sell them out just because I can.You have to have trust in this business. You have to have ethics and sound principles.

Having legal rights will not always give you ethical rights ( which you
cannot buy for a million dollars but can cost you a few million).

Even if you get a lawyer involved to make the offer, it is still blackmail.

It's just with a lawyer this time.

[gregkdavis]

The person who posted this question may not have known it at the time,
but knew enough to ask about a ethical situation, not necessarily a legal
situation.

[ QUOTE ]

A. that's what you shot them for right?

B. I'm sure you have a proper release, right?

C. You own the copyright, right?

D. You get published in the process?

E. You get paid.

F. You teach "wannabe" models not to pose for photos thinkin they can just change their minds and change a
business transaction. Which might actually limit the number
of models, which might actually be good for the modeling industry and the photographers.




[/ QUOTE ]

That's why photographers are in general looked down upon as the low end of the
imagery industry. That kind of thinking generally leads to problems in the
long run.

What if that were your kid? His asking showed that at least his sense of
ethics and self-respect is somewhere in his sub-conscious.

------------------------------------------------------

One thing I've learned is that you have to run a tight and ethical ship
that is reliable and trust worthy in order to get the really cool jobs
and to make the big bucks.

I've yet to see any photographer looked upon as a hero when these situations
come up and the photographer sells out.
The general public and the industry sees them as the scum that they are.

And this includes the hypocrites.

Greg.

[Gunfitr]

O.K. fellas, lets take this down the road you suggest.

Let's say this is all about ethics. Let's say that ethics require you to "ask" the model about her desires and to then respect them if she "changes" her mind.

Let's say that if you go against her wishes that it makes you both a **** and unethical and may hurt your business in the future.

What then do you call the models conduct in this situation?

What if you paid the model, everything is in order for the material to be sold/published, but she comes back and ask for more money? Are you going to pay her more.

I read post after post on here about guys whining about the outlay of cash and expenses and hassle to get a model to show up, shoot, and then have something of publishing grade.

So, is that the risk then, you outlay the time, effort, work, your craft, your vision, your sweat and tears, and then if the model "decides" after all of that to withdraw her consent to the publication....where does that leave you?

Out of business?

I don't see this as a matter of ethics at all. Ethics is doing the right thing even when no one is looking and even if no one can force you to "choose" between 2 paths legally.

Ethics is about not going back on your word.

Ethics is about not screwing people by use of a loophole.

You have done everything you intended, stated, planned for and what was the agreement and expectation of the parties.

You certainly have the choice to not publish the photos. But should you choose to exercise that path, it's not ethics. Maybe it makes you a nice guy. Maybe it makes you a sucker. But it's not ethical conduct. It isn't about morality.

Some may disagree with me I am sure.

You say you wan't to maitain a good relationship with the model.

Are you going to shoot with her again? Would you recomend her to another photographer who asked for a reference.

Would you set up a publication grade shoot with this girl ever again?

If not, why not?

Mark

[kellyg]

If I remember correctly, he's a lawyer.

[kellyg]

I like the way YOU think.

kellyg

[gregkdavis]

Thank you------
I have to do a follow-up post to the "gunftr" guess he wants to push the limits.

[gregkdavis]

Ok, I will follow-up on this one.
Give me a few moments.....